My thoughts on twinking

[Tentadrilus]

This thread is going to get me flagged as a "twinker", but whatever.

I don't see why you're going to have to punish "twinkers". So a guy comes along to a new player, and says "Hey! Let me give you a helping hand," and gives him, say, a novablade. I'd call this an act of kindness. I don't know about you, but the last time I checked, giving people things was kind. Even if a guild wants to create an army of lingually challenged nublets to the teeth with Hoarfrost Shards and sets of Phoenix armour, that's their choice. And it's also the nublets' choice to accept these items. My point is: let the "twinkers" and "twinkees" deal with the consequences of their actions. Don't create a mod then prevent people from playing it by cursing their characters.

Frankly, the way you're punishing "twinkers" is obscene. What if they want to play normally? What if they pick the wrong item out of an artifact chest and need to give it to someone else? Blammo. Well done! You've successfully ruined a run for them. "I know guys! Let's watch those evil communist twinkers play through the whole of Lodagond, then steal their tomahawks at the end!". This is not the way to deal with things, and you should know this.

Allow me to point you in the direction of World of Warcraft. This is a game where twinking actually affects the economy, the playerbase, and in extreme cases, the game environment. What did Blizzard do to prevent it? They endorsed it. In their most recent expansion, they brought in "Artifact" items, which are special weapons or armor that scale in power to your level. How about you just create a system that scales weapons to your level? Before level restrictions, this was already kind of in place, and could be improved into an actual system that gets rid of the problem. That way, it gives "twinkees" a very slight advantage instead of an absolutely massive one. Blizzard did not make these artifacts free, however - they made it so you have to work on a maximum-level character to earn the special currency used to buy them.

So, we could utilise this method in MS:C: create an NPC (perhaps a wizard) that, for a pretty steep price, can let your character use a specific weapon or piece of armour and make said item scale to your abilities. Et voila, twinking gone.

So go on. I guess you can say that I endorse twinking. Go ahead and curse my character, if it pleases you. But do so with the knowledge that all you are doing is destroying your playerbase.

 

[vecraude]

Twinking isnt as bad as people think, it happens on ALL MMORPGs, its completely unavoidable...you can bible beat that "ohh its bad, just pick up all the crap from the chest and dont let them have it" well im so freakin sorry that I dont wanna overflow my char but guess what? IT WILL HAPPEN.

You cant stop twinkers and you can bitch and flame all you want, but its gonna happen, look at some of the highest record MMOs that people play, blizzard is now wanting their players to twink by making tiers buyable. ragnarok online was eaiser than crap to twink so I dont even need to mention it, maplestory has twinks every freakin day, Its gonna happen and it will always happen so your best bet is to just lay off.

You may be saying "oh its killing off the mod! stop" well I got news, the mod isnt dead, Its just still being worked on and this problem may be fixed, but you know good and well that it will only be a matter of time before were overrun with twinks again so why fight it?

Now this goes straight to DT, the ones who have religiously beat on anything and everything that is twinking etc. let me ask you this, and this is open for the entire guild to respond to so long as its civilized:

Why do you persist on something you know you cant stop? and if its your biggest concern then why dont you just try being a dev for a day, see what its like and realize that certain things require the mod to be COMPLETELY rewritten and or remade in general?

I have no spite for any guild, no qualms, each guild has their personal opinions but when im assulted on why im in BoU or why I think BoU is good its like a religion fight. As far as DT goes, only crazy bastard in DT is oldmanwise for his "you gave a sword to your guild leader? well youll have to drop something of equal or greater value to remain in the guild"...quite a dumb rule that he seems to wanna press on all DT initiates.

Other than that DT is a good guild, I was just practically driven off by old for his asshattery. Now BoU is my family I never had, We run dungeons together, act stupid together, share laughs and past experiences together, and we DO fight the twinking war...just not on a religious level.

 

[Mikkel]

You guys did a better job on killing the mod, rather than the devs.

 

[Tentadrilus]

Well, would you be willing to provide us with an example, rather than just blindly pointing fingers?

 

[Borya]

Twinking has a time and a place.

This community is neither the time nor the place. The community is not large enough, and the amount of items, along with the maps that carry those items, is far too small to support being "nice" to quite the extent that some people want to push it to. The main problem I see with twinking in this game is that it leads to people going from having "grind until I can use next item" and "get next item" to just "grind until I can use next item", which completely removes either a third or half of the activities in-game, depending on whether or not "socialize with other players" is an activity that said player does. Another big problem is that most players that do accept the more extreme forms of help don't really realize that they've just lost a large part of the game, and while you grizzled veterans might prefer that the loot be at the beginning of the maps and show up 100% of the time, some people do enjoy the reward that comes from the work and dedication that it takes to either gear yourself up, or at least make a difference in running some of the harder maps (pulling their own weight, so to speak).

While I don't expect your opinions to change, and I do understand that it can be fun and rewarding in it's own right to help out a new player, just know that sometimes, doing too much can hurt the longevity of the game for the player that you're helping. I can only hope there is no one out there twinking people with the intention of the player possibly leaving the game far earlier than they otherwise would...

 

[zeus9860]

>_>
<_<
>_<

Everyone has their own way of thinking about these things, if we help lower lvls get better stuff it will probably make them go away from the game faster... but hey teh same thing might happen if you don't help them getting anything they most wish when playing ms:c. So in fact the term "twinking" isnt much aplied in ms:c, i say this because its true if you look at my point of view (someone's playing with me that doesnt have... let's say a hoarfrost, we beat lodagond series all together with some other guys, i end up picking chest 1st and what i get to pick is a hoarfrost, since that guy is around i give him that item) this is what happens most of the time in-game, and from what i figured out twinking doesnt involve this kind of reactions amoung items once dropped and given away like this, and i'm sure that its better to give them away at the exact moment to someone who doesnt have it and its right there with us rather than letting someone else be "greedy" (or maybe not) about items drops. If anyone declines this then i dont see what's the purpose of the latest artifact system. It shows the rarest stuff to anyone actually who dont have it, if anyone declines the offer the lower lvls will end up getting the same items we would give away.

On another hand i don't see also a reason for there being punishing for this kind of stuff, there's worst things out there probably. :|

Also i do believe that said "twinking" from some people actually ruins the game, if it does then do point out something that it contributes to kill the game has i'm interested to know the replies to this question. I made my point and i probably wont reply back unless i feel like to. Now, awaiting for replies (i guess). xD

 

[Tentadrilus]

If the "twinks" find that their newfound power is ruining the game, then they should give away their items or they shouldn't have fcuking well accepted them in the first place.

 

[N1ghtmare]

Not Another twinking post ......

 

[Dejiko]

Why not just try to make all magical weapons scale to your level? I'd much rather see more unique weapons that you wont need to ditch simply because they don't do enough damage anymore. You don't know how many times I wish games like the Castlevania series had this kind of functionality, since some of my favorite weapons tend to be lower level.

Doing so may also lower the amount of people willing to give away their weapons since they will still be useful.

 

[Tentadrilus]

Not Another twinking post ......

If you don't care, why did you post? The least you could have done was put in a valid opinion that's in line with what the thread is about.

tl;dr Get out

 

[N1ghtmare]

Not Another twinking post ......

If you don't care, why did you post? The least you could have done was put in a valid opinion that's in line with what the thread is about.

tl;dr Get out

geez some people just can't take a joke. Heres something in line with what you're talking about:

I believe part of the fun in this mod is actually working hard to get said items. I mean what would a lvl 5 newb do with a blood drinker? even with an lboh to hold onto it, he can't wield it hence it serves no purpose for him to have one in the first place. If you are able to wield or use the said item, and are fully capable of playing said map, I see no harm in giving away an item, depending on how hard the item is to get of course. The only thing with that though is the fact that once some of these noobs have all the items or done all they can, they just packup and leave. I see noobs come and go all the time. MSC has a really small fanbase just because its built on an old engine. I would love to see more people playing and more servers up, but who knows what will happen in the future. :roll:

 

[Tentadrilus]

Wow, for a joke that was incredibly un-funny.

I do see where you're coming from, but the people who're dumb enough to accept hideously powerful items when they're still low level would probably cause more harm than good. 'Tis a form of "natural selection", shall we say.

 

[N1ghtmare]

in order to understand the joke, you got to think of how many times twinking has been brought up over the years. definitely not the funny ha ha, but amusing in its own right.

agree'd on the "natural selection" matter

 

[Sabre]

It's going to happen amongst guild members, no doubt about it. If BoU, TPod, DT, and whoever want to pass items amongst themselves, I find that there is no issue with that, to an extent, which I shall point out down below, har.

The main reason I don't like twinking is that it's kind of an insult to content contributors. By just handing someone an item, it is like you are scoffing at the people that worked hard to put that item in-game, from the people that made that model, in many cases specifically for this mod, to the people that designed the map, and the people that wrote scripts for that model and map. It may just be an item, but there is a lot of work happening, for free I might add, in order to get that item from being a random modeler's (or mapper's) thought, to being the almighty sought-after slice 'o win guarded by some serious badass-ery.

EDIT: Oh, and Nightmare, don't make stupid one-liners, and retort with OMGITWUZJOEK...We already have a troll around here that does that kthxu.

 

[N1ghtmare]

EDIT: Oh, and Nightmare, don't make stupid one-liners, and retort with OMGITWUZJOEK...We already have a troll around here that does that kthxu.

Same could be said for you. That was between me and Tentadrilus, since it has been resolved I see no reason to bring it back up. seriously, get a life.

 

[Sabre]

Call it preventative.

 

[Borya]

I do see where you're coming from, but the people who're dumb enough to accept hideously powerful items when they're still low level would probably cause more harm than good. 'Tis a form of "natural selection", shall we say.

But there's always a chance that an otherwise normal player, possibly due to coming from another game where things happen to be carried out differently, will accept the item not understanding the consequences to doing so. While natural selection in theory is a good thing, what concerns me is the chance that we could lose otherwise good, normal players to it. If everything was explained to the person that will be receiving the item(s) ahead of time, then leaving the final decision up to them, I'm sure the anti-twinking crowd would have at least somewhat less of a problem with it being done.

Also, for the most part, when I mention twinking, I'm not talking the 'person is a little too low to be of much help but you guys let him have at stuff you do not need, as long as he does something other than sit in a corner and play with himself while you guys do the work', I'm talking the 'not even take the person anywhere but edana and just start throwing things at them', or the 'going up to a <100hp player who is still getting their feet wet and offering to run them through lodagond for all the phat lewt, whether or not they know what exactly lodagond is'.

Although I see nothing wrong with a suitably responsible group showing a well-behaved low level player any maps that they're curious about, sort of like a guided tour.

 

[Tentadrilus]

Of course, you guys are completely forgetting that the twinks can just give the overpowered items away if they feel it's ruining their experience.

 

[Borya]

Not quite. Having something, then losing it, then getting it again makes the section 'victory' feel hollow, compared to not having had the thing to begin with, as well as makes the 'initial' (re)earning of the thing rather monotonous, if not outright repulsive. The whole experience can be brought down by a very large degree, depending on the amount of work, be it actual or just theoretical, that was lost in losing whatever was lost.

Also, the use of vague terms is due to that this can apply to not just items, but many other things that can be associated with progression.

 

[Tentadrilus]

Aye, I guess. Well, twinking will always exist, no matter what you do to stop it. If you punish twinkers, you'll be driving away the higher-level players as well as the low-level players.

 

[Truewarrior]

Twinking isn't the problem about why ms:c isn't popular anymore.. If we still had updates going on, a few spams there and there on websites such as Moddb and planethalflife, it would surely interest many players to visiting us, then be shocked to see how many days of grinding he needs to achieve a single level.

I have been using a perfect missblade since I could weild one,¸being at 28 swords and still using that was a true pain, at least the small in-game community is fun to play with. I recently got my hands on an hoarfrost and it makes a huge difference already.

 

[Red Cell]

If we still had updates going on...

Sorry for going slightly off topic, but why do you think updates are so few these days?

EDIT: Just a note, I'm not trying to troll, I just want to know people''s opinion on the matter.

 

[Thothie]

Official policy teim, I suppose...

WHAT TWINKING IS NOT
Twinking is NOT helping a bunch of 300hp characters survive Old Helena. Twinking is not even giving a low level character access to a high level chest after you've raided it yourself. Twinking is not handing out items suited to just over another character's current tier. Indeed, several items in the game, that can only be accessed by high level characters, are designed to be passed onto lower characters, being of no use to those who acquire them, in order to encourage player interaction across the rather stark power-level divide.

WHAT TWINKING IS
Twinking is deliberately collecting duplicate powerful items, en mass, solely for the purpose of passing them onto low level characters, either in an effort to bring them to the level wall faster, or simply to fracture the item economy of the gaming world out of spite.

WHY TWINKING IS BAD
Players who have every item in the game early have no motivation to keep playing until they become powerful enough to have actually earned them. Those few that do, reach the level wall even faster, which results in more players who have nothing better to do than to become twinkers themselves, thus creating a vicious cycle. It discourages exploration of the world, in addition to removing motivation to even bother playing. The number of character save files that have gone dormant, with 300 or 400hp, after somehow having gathered every available item in the game at the time, is simply staggering. The number of 200hp characters crawling around, with AoB, golden helm, and a Felewyn blade, complaining that "equipment is far too heavy", is likewise, rather disgusting.

It's far worse in MSC than in most MORPG's, simply because there is, at the moment, nothing else to do once a character hits the level wall. Most people realize this and make new characters, but there's always a fair percentage of immature power hungry children who insist on continuing on with their maxed out characters, and aggravate the problem as an expression of their inevitable self-inflicted frustration.

WHAT OTHER RPG'S DO ABOUT TWINKING
The idea that "nothing can be done about twinking" is utterly ludicrous. Every MORPG out there has anti-twinking measures of one type or another. Common methods, oft used in combination, include strict level requirements, non-tradable unique items, quest flagged items, and the simple inability to trade gold. For instance, those following the WoW adventures of Morgan Web (Xplay) will note that, on occasion, WoW has deleted paying accounts of excessive twinkers, as well as the items they passed out. This happened to several of her own guild members, after some of their accounts were hijacked, and her guild stores were raided (must be nice to have a unique item identification system to allow that). The management at WoW deletes characters found for sale on Ebay and Craigslist, and the twinked items they've spread, on a regular basis.

WHAT WILL MSC DO ABOUT TWINKING?
Those who are known twinkers, or have advocated said activity on the forums, will likely find themselves simply unable to drop or sell items in the next patch, being capable only of deleting them. (Save for manna and health potions, and basic ammunition.)

Those who remain, will no longer be able to drop nor sell items over a certain value. However, they will have access to the new, long-over-due, trade system, through which they can trade items to one another of approximate value. (Based on a tier system, rather than gold value of the item in question.)

This will have the added benefit that it will no longer be possible to rip-off fellow players by trading for items of nowhere near equal value (which also happens far too often) and cut down on the number of items swiped by ninjas passing mid-trade, as it will eliminate the need to drop items in order to trade them.

Apostle weapon fragments (ie. Felewyn Shards) will only be tradable for other Apostle weapon fragments. Obtaining the final Felewyn Blade requires five players, each with a different fragment, thus the only reason to have multiple fragments (besides to twink) is to pass them off to friends during this quest. Obtaining this weapon brings you quite close to the end-game, so it should be much harder than the number of shards currently flying about would allow.

WHAT HAPPENS IF I'M TWINKED?
As for those already twinked (and being twinked as I write this)... Particularly powerful items will be marked with an hp requirement, and characters holding items well above and beyond their status (such as the oft bragged about level 5 characters with AoB and Hoarfrost shards), will have them deleted automatically (roll backs will not aid in this, for they will only be automatically removed again). So twinkers attempting to destroy the game for as many as possible, should be aware that their efforts are in vain.

Sadly, for technical reasons (and due to another, unrelated, exploit that cropped up), this means that containers will no longer be droppable, but only delete'able once emptied (yes, we thought of that, you sneaky bastards). You'll still be able to sort them by placing them in your hands and re-equipping them, however, or sell them (which empties the container).

If a couple of avid twinkers wish to ruin the game for everyone, I'm afraid that's as close as they are ever going to come.

 

[zeus9860]

oh great i can totally enjoy seeing my alt getting his own set of items deleted because of this "new system" I guess i better start working on it or transfer to my main... >_<

 

[Thothie]

That maybe wise, although you shouldn't need a mule character after the new bank is implemented.

There also aren't very many items that can't be ticketed, so you shouldn't really need a mule character *now* unless you're storing up for massive twinkage and have massive numbers of duplicates of every item.