DemonTemple...

[Skillasaur]

Well, these are my first thoughts after a completed play through of DemonTemple as a level 25 fencer [381 hp] [my lowest level skill being spellcasting at 9 and highest being swordsmanship at 21 with balanced skills in between] With my friend, a 29 thug with 24 small arms and 487 hp.

I suppose my suspicions should have been raised at the hp reccomended: 350-600 but the level requirement 20-25 reassured me and I gave it a go regardless. At first the level seemed well suited, the mobs not entirely easy but at least possible to beat with a good equip [High elven sword, Large Iron sheild, Ice blade, Ice sheild and Sir Geric's armor]. As we progressed though we found more difficult enemies but still overcame. The real problem came after we found the "key of darkness". We took ages, searching around the level for the second key but only after a good half-hour to an hour of searching [and after finding both the map credits room and the chest opening room] we finally managed to locate the room with the key of light. Staggeringly, the horror was probably the easiest fight on the map.

Of course after finally finding the key we were looking forward to whatever "boss fight" awaited us. As we approached the door crumbled and we went forth, into the abyss. Suddenly we appeared in a tiny room, with only one possible path and a teleporter at the end of it. The only problem being that in this circular room we encountered two Greater Fire Giants, a Fire Djinn and an Efeeti summon. Needless to say, we were torn down in seconds.

But we persevere, despite the fact that we die pretty much instantly to double teaming Fire Giants with a huge range, stun attack and knockback attack and of course the fire Djinn with similar range and 80 damage physical attack [ice shielded and armored so realistically about 300 dmg a hit]. Despite these huge odds we decided to chuck everything we had at them, after all, don't all level 20-25s have Greater Holy arrows, crossbows, ice blades and fire resistance potions and "A Fire Lizard Skin" armor? Thankfully the combined efforts of the potions and Greater Holy arrows [totaling well over 700 gold in cost] managed to rid us off the fire giants. From then it was just a case of using the Rune sheild and Ice blades to force the Djinn into submition - even then about six or seven attempts, hoping we were lucky and didn't die so he regained hp.

Eventually, however, the titanic battle ended. With one final blow the Djinn stumbles and falls, his "Phat Loot" scattered around him. This "Phat Loot" consisted of around 6-8 gold pouches containing 50 gold each. Stunned, we looked around and found the chest. The soul contents of this chest were as follows:

25 Blessed Bolts
25 gold coins [2]
Mana potion [2]
Summon Undead Scroll.

...

I suppose what I really want to say in summary to this epic fail is "Gnngh..." but after careful consideration I ask that this level face some serious scrutiny as to it's balance or at least to it's level range... Most level 20-25s don't even have our level of HP or equip and despite this being a "Team-work" orientated map most level 20-25s would die instantly entering the boss room.

I await a careful, considered and not wholly "wtf are you chatting" response

Sincerely, an out of pocket gamer.

 

[tehrilez]

It's cause of player related loot.

More players = Better loot.

Two players = What the **** are you kidding me loot.

 

[Skillasaur]

If you'd read my post you'd note I stated that the BASE damage of the Djinn's physical attack was at least half if not more than the recommended player health and I'd also stated the player health range was largely incorrect for the player level range. I'm not just whining about loot here so don't tell me about player related loot.

...

...on the subject of player related loot though I find that this is rather too strict. Surely if there are less players then the map is harder? I'd suggest changeing it so that more players = more okish loot and less players = less loot overall but better quality. The amount of work any sized group of levels 20-25 [especially considering three of the mobs in the boss room regain hp when a player dies] is entirely disproportionate to the loot we received.

 

[Xeropace]

I don't agree with more people = better loot.

It just increases the Artifact Chest trigger rate. And it only seems to ever choose one player. I agree with more people = more loot, but less people = better quality. With less people it is harder, so surely they'd want to be rewarded for their efforts? With like 6 people all killing one boss, it dies in like 10 seconds (The_keep for example). Then the treasure chest contains rubbish, and the artifact always chooses the high level.

Are they done by random, who who deals the most damage or something?

 

[villager]

More players do = more loot, unless you mean 6 players = 6 demonclaws, then no. Hell no.

 

[Xeropace]

I've done The_keep with like 5-6 players, and the loot has been no better than with anything less.

Sure there is more loot. A few extra pouches of 25 gold, a mana potion or two. Maybe the odd sword, like a High Elven or Skullblade.

But seriously. Two people struggling to complete a map, to be granted with something they could have brought for a few hundred gold?

 

[Skillasaur]

He wasn't asking if it was the case, he was stating that he believed it should not be the case. I agree with Xeropace on this. This also doesn't answer the question of the artifact chests.

 

[FER]

Thothi once posted that the map was mid level, with a boss room being high level. Also the other chest you come across has a rare too

 

[Skillasaur]

But on a level with such a low level margin I don't understand how you can have 4 boss mobs [1 respawning summon] - all capable of solo killing a player - in one room. This is the same level range as calrian starts becoming solo-able, yet we are faced with two "blacksmith" damage range mobs and a Djinn with high damage in the same room.

 

[Glorfindel]

It is unfortunate that the hardship of the map you experienced with little reward is very frustrating...but it's just the way things are. There are way too many rare items going around as it is, and with the lack of hundreds of maps to the point where a rare a map would be a probable solution, it has just been decided that if you play a map with a lot of people, you'll get loot.

Also, I believe that only 400+ HP players will get something to spawn on that map, and so with only one 400+ hp player, you had no chance of something spawning.

But yeah, I do think even with beating a single higher level boss map by yourself there should still be an amount of 'good' items so that it isnt all to waste, like a psb (instead of the lovely sharp skullblade on demontemple), golden/dark platemail helmet, and maybe knight's or just plain platemail, along with more relocs and return crystals.

And those of you who may argue against this...it takes me a single minute to run through a small group of orcs in ms_cave to get this kind of shit, and yet I fight through demontemple to get like 500 coins and a mana pot/sharp skullblade.

 

[Skillasaur]

My main point was that despite the level recommendations and hp recommendations we were forced to use not only rare equipment [most of which had been traded by higher level players] but also single use items [like the potions of fire resistance] just to stand a chance. [and we were at top end and above the level requirement.] The question of loot was only there as an afterthought considering how much money we had to use in single use items and how much xp we may have lost considering the boss damage.

 

[The Man In Black]

The level recommendation isn't saying "One player with this level or this hp can take the map" - It's supposed to be a TEAM of those levels/hps (4+, maybe) should be able to take the map with no problem.

 

[Thothie]

Two players of about the right level range, struggled to pull it off, rolled bad and only two of you so didn't get much - sounds perfect to me. Map is acting just as it should.

J-M's report of flooding the server with players and not getting squat is worrysome though.

Also, I believe that only 400+ HP players will get something to spawn on that map, and so with only one 400+ hp player, you had no chance of something spawning.

Some chance, but very little.

But on a level with such a low level margin I don't understand how you can have 4 boss mobs [1 respawning summon] - all capable of solo killing a player - in one room.

Demontemple has one of the kindest boss chambers in the entire collection. Stuff to hide behind, and easy to escape, hit, run, repeat - so long as you don't go down the one dead end. Aside from the Efreet the minions don't even respawn (almost unique to that map). Nothing in there is capable of “one-hitting” a level 20 player (lest he's a specialist or something, but tis why we have HP markers as well as level ranges.)

I don't agree with more people = better loot. [...] It just increases the Artifact Chest trigger rate. And it only seems to ever choose one player.

More players does equal more loot (dramatically so, in many cases), in addition to improving the chances on Artifact Chest rolls.

The first item an Artifact Chest picks goes to the most powerful player on the server. The next one it picks goes to the next strongest, and so on, and so forth, until it runs out of items to pass out.

 

[Shurik3n]

And luckily for you people that don't help, the first item it picks isn't always the best, or rare at all (see: forgetful potion), so theres still hope that the second item will be good and the high level will get cheated out of something .

 

[Thothie]

Yeah, but yer odds of getting anything at all go to sh*t when yer alone.

I'll give specific details as to how the demontemple djinn chest works, as it's rather typical of the newer chests and may help with some confuzions:

(CONTAINS SPOILERS):

- Gives 50 gold/player up to 300gp
- Gives mana potions equal to 25% of the number of players (min 1)
- Gives health potions equal to 50% of the number of players (min 1)
- Adds two random “good” items from a lengthy list
-- Examples on “good” item list include: lesser ice blade, resist cold potion, summon undead scroll, etc
If more than 2 players with 300hp:
- Add another random “good” item
If more than 4 players with 300hp:
- Add one random “great” item from a lengthy list
-- Examples on “great” item list include: blizzard tome, perfect sb, rejuvenate tome, fireball scroll, dark helm
(There's also an “epic” list, but demontemple doesn't warrant its use)
Rolls for random bolts: (most chests do this)
- 5% +2%/player chance for wooden bolts
- 2% +5%/player (max 30%) chance for iron bolts
- 1% +5%/player (max 20%) chance for blessed bolts
If player with 450+hp opens the chest
- 1% +5%/player w/450+hp (max 50%) chance to add an item unique to map (hint: it's an axe)

Players deteremined to be AFK, to be bots, or who have been on the map less than 5 minutes are not counted. (Thinking of increasing that last requirement due to some incidents of late comers getting artifact chest items.)

 

[Xeropace]

Well I've done runs of The_keep with like five people, and we sometimes never get any artifacts, and the main chest itself just carries a load of rubbish that anyone that level to beat the map already has. Perfect Skullblades, Lesser Ice Blades, High Elven etc.

I already had all these things. The only good chest is the Artifact, and 50% of the time that gave out a normal Ice Blade...

Also about demontemple being the nicest boss chamber? The only path you can take is the ramp, and 9/10 all four of them clustered on the ramp making it impossible. It is not easy to run away, as the two firegiants can stun you so easily. Then the Djinn plays with you a bit doing like 80 damage a hit. Not nice.

So we need four people? Me and Skilla enjoy playing with just us two... The map says 20-25 right? But you just said the 1% +5%/player w/450+hp. A level 20-25 doesn't usually have that much HP, I didn't, I've only just got past 450 at 29, and I've been trying to balance most of my skills, with the exception of Small Arms which is my main.

 

[Skillasaur]

Two players of about the right level range, struggled to pull it off, rolled bad and only two of you so didn't get much - sounds perfect to me. Map is acting just as it should.

J-M's report of flooding the server with players and not getting squat is worrysome though.

Also, I believe that only 400+ HP players will get something to spawn on that map, and so with only one 400+ hp player, you had no chance of something spawning.

Some chance, but very little.

400+ hp level 20-25? I'm level 25 with, as I said, no real neglected skills and yet my hp is only 380, and I'm top end of the recommendations

But on a level with such a low level margin I don't understand how you can have 4 boss mobs [1 respawning summon] - all capable of solo killing a player - in one room.

Demontemple has one of the kindest boss chambers in the entire collection. Stuff to hide behind, and easy to escape, hit, run, repeat - so long as you don't go down the one dead end. Aside from the Efreet the minions don't even respawn (almost unique to that map). Nothing in there is capable of “one-hitting” a level 20 player (lest he's a specialist or something, but tis why we have HP markers as well as level ranges.)

Ok, well stuff to hide behind is wrong. The mobs [Djinn and both Giant Skeletons included] can travel over all terrain in there and have hit range [and knockback range] furthur then any possible pillar you could hide against. This not only makes it impossibly hard for an archer but also makes it difficult to block more than one at a time with a sheild [but not impossible as, with defence bonuses equaling roughly 75% we managed to tank the Djinn long enough to kill it in 6 or 7 tries with my friend the level 29 [out of recommended player level] did damage], also easy to escape is wrong. While all four of them are active they typically block the only way up to the teleport and even if they don't they are usually to the right of the ramp and use their knockback attack to knock you back and stun you for a good 4 seconds [and with abilities to do up to 300dmg unresisted if you get spammed by both fire giants and the Djinn at that point you die pretty much instantly - I managed to die while under attack while my hp was still showing upwards of 100 [with 75% damage reduction]].

I don't agree with more people = better loot. [...] It just increases the Artifact Chest trigger rate. And it only seems to ever choose one player.

More players does equal more loot (dramatically so, in many cases), in addition to improving the chances on Artifact Chest rolls.

The first item an Artifact Chest picks goes to the most powerful player on the server. The next one it picks goes to the next strongest, and so on, and so forth, until it runs out of items to pass out.

But why? This doesn't answer the fact that it's more difficult with less players and therefore more players get more loot? In theory then a group of level 30s doing calrian runs would get better loot then a single level 20 doing demontemple [if such a thing was possible]

 

[CrazyMonkeyDude]

This is a multiplayer game. You should have a lot of people anyways. I tried to do demontemple with just myself and a 25 as well, and it didn't work out at all. Finally some people joined and killed the fire Djinn. Of course, the chest didn't drop anything useful.

It never seems to anymore. :\

 

[Thothie]

If you meet the level requirement, and not the HP requirement, your character is not well rounded enough to make the map difficulty.

Two people, essentially, should not be able to take a boss of their level down. They are balanced out to deal with at least four players of their own level range. If you wanna take bosses out with only two players: go for weaker bosses. The fact that you weren't so frustrated with two that you gave up suggests the bosses there are not strong enough.

At level 27, the map was always a breeze for me, even with only a level 25, and a level 30 to back me up. Next to Geric's, easiest boss room I've ever delt with. Monsters do not attempt to "block" you from reaching the teleporter - they ain't that smart - they simply follow players around. It's very easy to keep them from blocking the path.

 

[CrazyMonkeyDude]

Well, the damage that the fire djinn does is very hard to get over, even with ice shield, fire lizard skin, and urdulian shield. I have 37 parry, 547 HP, and a GiB. Taking 80-160 damage a second (2 hits/s) with fire giants throwing you around and stunning makes it hard to run if you try to fight for more than a second. Even with a group of people, I have found it a hard time, at level 30.

We also had 6 players with 450+ HP run demontemple just now. What dropped? Tome of blizzard, and a potion of warmth. Those were the best items. Other than that, serpent gauntlets didn't drop, and there were a few ice blades, and other "good" items, as you put it.