Giving MS:S a Kick Start

[hauptmann]

Has there been any talks about doing a MS:S kickstarter? I see an ass ton of indie games on that site all the time and was thinking it would be great to possibly get a good financial backbone to the MS:S project. Games like Clang and Chivalry did fairly well on it.I don't know if the project is properly poised for a kickstarter though.

I'm just going to list a bunch of questions that I think should be asked and then give my thoughts on them.

1.Where does the project stand with a development team?
If a committed team already exists, even a partial one, this obviously is a good starting point. I'm not completely up to date on who all is currently working on the project.

2.What percentage of the basic game is completed?
I see map screens, weapon models and stuff but is there a ball park percentage? How much of the game would have to be in place to be an initial release? Is there a clear direction for the move to source?

3.Is there a large enough calling for a game like this?
There aren't many multiplayer FPS action RPGs out there, why is that?

4.Could people be coaxed into giving $5-$50+ to the project? Could proper intensives be given for the different donation levels?
Each pledge level has a different rewards. Maybe something like concept art prints, game world maps(like skyrim),special thanks in credits, soundtrack, early access, exclusive ingame items, input on characters and story, meet the team/have lunch, etc...

5.How much money would it take to get the game on it's feet?
What could be done with various amounts of money?

6. Will being a source mod complicate things?

This is just me throwing this idea out there. I want to hear your guys' thoughts.

 

[zeus9860]

It's lost deep in the shadows of the ocean, in order to bring it back up you have to go down there and slowly bring it up yourself alone or with help.

 

[Red Cell]

In my honest opinion, I think that if they dev team could at least get 1-2 maps with 1-2 weapon and make this into a mini death-match style game, it could attract a few new dev team members. Just to say: hey look what we got, come make it awesome!

A little bit of something is better than a whole lot of nothing. Plus we could market it as a new take on the MS:C genre. Think of it as a fun mini-game with the characters you grew to love sprinkled with new cut-n-slash action.

 

[FER]

Nowadays it seems so easy to rip money from people with rpgs, specially pay2win trash

 

[Thothie]

1.Where does the project stand with a development team?
If a committed team already exists, even a partial one, this obviously is a good starting point. I'm not completely up to date on who all is currently working on the project.

You really need to ask Orochi for something more than rumors, but SFAIK, at the moment, it's him, on coding, and maybe two or three mappers that seem to come and go.

2.What percentage of the basic game is completed?
I see map screens, weapon models and stuff but is there a ball park percentage? How much of the game would have to be in place to be an initial release? Is there a clear direction for the move to source?

I think we have a few maps, and some framework of a code, but that's about it. Maybe 2%-5% - though most of it is coding. We may have some models too, not sure.

3.Is there a large enough calling for a game like this?
There aren't many multiplayer FPS action RPGs out there, why is that?

Back when Source was new, and was all the rage, I suspect a release like MSS woulda caused quite a stir. We seem to be entering an age, however, where very few people even have the required Source engine - running into a lot of kids that aren't getting the Gordon Freeman jokes, if ya know what I mean. I think Black Mesa found a way to distribute independently, but we don't have a major release to piggie-back on.

4.Could people be coaxed into giving $5-$50+ to the project? Could proper intensives be given for the different donation levels?
Each pledge level has a different rewards. Maybe something like concept art prints, game world maps(like skyrim),special thanks in credits, soundtrack, early access, exclusive ingame items, input on characters and story, meet the team/have lunch, etc...

5.How much money would it take to get the game on it's feet?
What could be done with various amounts of money?

Money is not the issue at this point, unless you intend to gather enough to hire reliable and professional coders.

6. Will being a source mod complicate things?

This is just me throwing this idea out there. I want to hear your guys' thoughts.

SFAIK, Orochi is still holding the code hostage, and given that the developers most likely to be found swimming around MSC, and thus interested in working on MSS, are more likely to be familiar with Source than any other engine, it isn't at all unjustified to stick to the plan of making it a Source mod. While there's a few engines that'll accept Half-Life1 models, and maybe even BSP's, there are few engines that are closer to Goldsource, and still can be tweaked up to modern graphics standards.

There've been several debates regarding this, but no other engine has really pulled out ahead. Unreal would have a far better SDK, but not that many MSC developers are familiar with it. The other alternatives range from independent engines that are all lacking in some way, or are modernized Quake builds.

 

[Thothie]

In my honest opinion, I think that if they dev team could at least get 1-2 maps with 1-2 weapon and make this into a mini death-match style game, it could attract a few new dev team members. Just to say: hey look what we got, come make it awesome!

Not sure if we have the models, but IIRC, we have the maps to do that - some of which are very pretty. If we got some models too - a simple concept art release/DM game probably would be a good idea.

Sadly, I've none of these materials archived myself. I suppose Orochi is sitting on the stock pile.


Granted, there's always my past efforts:


...Yeah... Okay, not really.

 

[Stoned]

...Yeah... Okay, not really.

Does anyone have the tga files for this? Seriously want this as my background in MSC.

 

[zeus9860]

Would be nice if we could have a background like the ones in source games, moving stuff in the background, showing maps...

Not sure if it's possible.

 

[Fredrikli]

the flames are not supposed to be floating...
anyways, this is how pumped i am for MS:S. i make maps for it even though i'm not part of the team and i know the mod is pretty much.. well ya know.

how many is still working on this? because i'd happily contribute with models, maps and sounds.

-Fredrikli

edit: couldn't resize the images, you'll just have to rightclick and "show image"

 

[zeus9860]

nice work, if you don't get a reply, could you perhaps instead help ms:c with models and maps?

 

[Fredrikli]

Problem is, i'm so used to source, that i tried doing ms:c maps but it's just painful... i'm woking on one for ms:c right now but it'll probably be the only one i make O_O

 

[Thothie]

Does anyone have the tga files for this? Seriously want this as my background in MSC.

Meh, here's just the background + logo... But you'd need to cut it up into a dozen pieces as seen in \msc\resource\background\ to make it work. You'd probably also have to resize it 800x600 first.

The first image is an actual compile, rather than just photoshop, at least.

Would be nice if we could have a background like the ones in source games, moving stuff in the background, showing maps...

Not sure if it's possible.

Dun think so - the Open GL system doesn't actually initiate until map load. The menu is software render. I think there's some legacy method of getting an AVI onto it though - a looping movie maybe.

Problem is, i'm so used to source, that i tried doing ms:c maps but it's just painful... i'm woking on one for ms:c right now but it'll probably be the only one i make O_O

Meh, deformation brushes will spoil you right quick. ^_^ Plus the much pickier optimizations, but the entity targeting system is at least simpler to work with, if not as dynamic. And ye old hammer works off-line.

 

[Orochi]

SFAIK, Orochi is still holding the code hostage, and given that the developers most likely to be found swimming around MSC, and thus interested in working on MSS, are more likely to be familiar with Source than any other engine, it isn't at all unjustified to stick to the plan of making it a Source mod. While there's a few engines that'll accept Half-Life1 models, and maybe even BSP's, there are few engines that are closer to Goldsource, and still can be tweaked up to modern graphics standards.

There've been several debates regarding this, but no other engine has really pulled out ahead. Unreal would have a far better SDK, but not that many MSC developers are familiar with it. The other alternatives range from independent engines that are all lacking in some way, or are modernized Quake builds.

A little clarification on the state of MSS:
I am not "holding the code hostage". The server move killed our SVN and I was never given a place to upload everything. I still have everything, including Brian's old internal alpha version, on my computer and backed up to an external drive.

That being said, it's been difficult to find the time and inclination to work on MSS. Job-hunting keeps me busy, and I find myself unable to find a time where I can consistently focus on coding. Plus the fact that coding for source is complicated. Thothie, if you thought Goldsource was a beast to code for, you'd quail at Source. Combine all that together and you have a recipe for apathy.

Also, things would go a lot better if we had more developers. Namely Coders, modelers and texture artists. No offense intended, but music creators and concept artists are a dime a dozen. I want this game to look good and not be a hodgepodge of design styles like MSC. It would also help stimulate coding interest if I had a model, even a placeholder to attach to the NPC I'm making. I can't test an NPC if I don't have a model to give it.

 

[zeus9860]

For the 100th time, focus in ms:c, once the main lore is finished, jump to ms:s and work together.

If you helped ms:c progress faster and make a deal with the current devs in ms:c, maybe, just maybe, ms:s would have a better change of seeing daylight.

Even if ms:s got released before ms:c ended, it wouldn't make much sense to me for that to happen, i would gladly support ms:s, after i see ms:c done for good.

Dev-hunting seems to be hard these days, they come and go at the speed of light. Like that guy who said he would make one wish for us (kray eldorad, elven city), damn successful troll... -_-'

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

No offense intended, but music creators and concept artists are a dime a dozen.

As someone who has experience both with mapping and composing, I can tell you, composing is far more difficult. Sure, people who know how to use fruity loops are a dime a dozen, but a composer who can tie a game together with the concept of leitmotif and who can evoke the right mood at the right time is a rarity. I'm convinced everyone can teach themselves level design, but very few people can learn the skills to be a versatile composer by themselves. You probably think composers are a dime a dozen because most skilled ones aren't willing to affiliate with you without payment.

It's a shame you have such an obtuse view of music, since, at the end of the day, the soundtrack is what makes or breaks most games and film. If MSS doesn't have a good soundtrack I predict it will not be a very good game.

 

[FER]

The game can work without music, but not without maps or models....

 

[zeus9860]

The game can work without music, but not without maps or models....

This is true, but it's also true that in order to enjoy something to its fullest, you need a nice soundtrack playing in the back, a soundtrack that connects properly with each area of the map. I can tell you, some of the soundtracks in ms:c are pretty good, though i feel that sometimes they aren't properly used. I think the best example using a soundtrack properly in this game is the isle map, fits perfectly.

What oyster wanted to say is that, "why have a game that focuses in maps and models, but not music". That's sort of bullsh!t to me too, i'm the kind of player that enjoys a nice soundtrack, each person with their own tastes. Most people these days prefer graphics over gameplay, sad truth.

 

[Thothie]

As someone who has experience both with mapping and composing, I can tell you, composing is far more difficult.

I've the opposite experience myself - but it maybe the fact that I was composing at a far younger age than I was mapping... Then again, I've not done any composing in a long time, so maybe it'd be harder now that I'm older. >_>

But one excess of original material we do have in MSC, is original music. All of Lanethan's music could be transferred to MSS (of which I think there are nearly thirty pieces). There's also a lot of original Midi's by Lanethan's and a few others that could be re-rendered into suitable MP3's, with the proper software.

Granted, I've often complained that the MSC music track is far too tranquil, and that we need more combat oriented music. An encounter music cross-fade system, as seen in most modern FPS RPG's, would be nice as well.

 

[Thothie]

A little clarification on the state of MSS:
I am not "holding the code hostage". The server move killed our SVN and I was never given a place to upload everything. I still have everything, including Brian's old internal alpha version, on my computer and backed up to an external drive.

http://www.mediafire.com/
https://www.google.com/intl/en_US/drive ... nload.html
https://www.dropbox.com/
On the off chance you are kidnapped by aliens (which happens a lot to developers around here), drop the code into an encrypted rar (sans the build), and set it up to a cloud somewhere. Get Kuroneko, or someone, a link to said cloud now, and the password, in preparation for the day when you are vanished. A SVN is rather pointless, when you've only got one coder, but I'm sure RKS could rig one up. I know he can at least get you FTP space, which we have in abundance.

I *suspect* if we ever get a new MSS coder, they'll want to start from scratch (yet again)... Thus, what I'm more concerned about, is the maps and any models you may have. So far as a I know, there's no online collection of these.

Really, the best way to jump-start this, would be simply to gather the maps together in a sweet little package, coupled with just enough Source mod compile to wander through the maps and look around. Barring that, a map pack by itself, perhaps for use with HL2, just for folks to look over and be inspired by.

Mayhaps rigging up a ModDB page of the showcased materials, ala the Star Trek mod yonder:
http://www.moddb.com/mods/na7240
(Eh, nevermind... Seems that mod picked up and moved to another engine... Suffice to say, it used to be Source mod, and had nothing but maps containing the Enterprise bridge and a few other areas and models. Rather well detailed though. Apparently, that effort at displaying media did indeed get their mod back off the ground.)

 

[Orochi]

The Map Showcase mini-mod be arranged, if I can ever get the maps from everyone who said they were working on them. If you are or were working on an MSS map, please send it to me at [email protected] .

While it's true that good music can add to a game, what I meant with a statement is the most common developer applications we've gotten are those from self-styled "composers" who want to do music for the game when we already have a lot, or for "concept artists" who can draw pretty pictures but not actually author textures. We don't need those nearly as much as we need modelers and texture artists.

Part of what's taking so long is I'm trying to make it so no one ever needs to start over again by actually documenting everything with comments and keeping all the MS:S-critical stuff above the SDK code. I'll try to work something out with Kuroneko. No offense to RKS, as he's done a lot for the community, but I've never worked with him and I'm loathe to turn over the code to a third party with whom I am not familiar.

 

[thesupersoup]

Uploaded all of my map files. May they serve you well.

 

[Thothie]

Oh dear, I was under the impression we already had those stored. Hope you get those maps together soon. Hopefully get several complete archives backed up soon after.

For the 100th time, focus in ms:c, once the main lore is finished, jump to ms:s and work together.

If you helped ms:c progress faster and make a deal with the current devs in ms:c, maybe, just maybe, ms:s would have a better change of seeing daylight.

Lore consistency between the two mods wouldn't be a major problem, given that the consistency even in different iterations of ye old MS has always be sketchy at best. We do have a vague plan in MSC, and I could put it down in stone, for the sake of MSS (and have even made some efforts in that regards), but I was under the impression that MSS had kinda decided to go its own way, lore wise. (I don't think SuperSoup liked my perpetual moral gray zone concept.)

But MSC is on an old engine that fewer and fewer people have access to. It is true, Source is rapidly heading in the same direction, but Goldsource is several years ahead, in terms of that sort of user base decay. Initially, my primary reason for sticking to MSC, and not hopping right over to the MSS team, was my hopes that, as you suggest, it'd drag in more potential developers. But we are rapidly approaching a point where we're bringing in new players so slowly, that it is no longer a reasonable justification for MSC's existence.

We're quite a ways from completing our story arc anyways (years behind where we expected to be at this time, due to various drama generated "MSC dark ages"). Looking down the short term pipe, we're actually doing more to complicate the lore than wrap it up - adding new conflicts for all the gods, and the dragons to boot. There's still a lot of blue squares on that world map, and it seems nearly every time we complete one, we add two more.

We don't need those nearly as much as we need modelers and texture artists.

Meh, I tried my hand as texture artist for MSS a ages ago (before you came to the project - or even the game, I suspect). Seems I couldn't manage to rig up textures that looked quite right in Source rendering. I suppose I could take another stab at it, now that I've more experience - but what sort of textures do you need? Symbols? Models? Rocks, stone, and wood? Seems, for basic mapping textures, there should be a fair number readily available.

No offense to RKS, as he's done a lot for the community, but I've never worked with him and I'm loathe to turn over the code to a third party with whom I am not familiar.

He's a professional, so ya don't really have to work with him - just his web space. It's true, we're completely reliant on RKS's services for our existence at this point, and I don't like having all our eggs in one basket either, but don't complain about not having access to resources, simply because you refuse to take advantage of the offer. There's only so much damage he could possibly do to the project, even if he wanted to, and I'm fairly certain he's ambivalent in that regards with no real interest in the development process.

 

[Orochi]

I am in the process of backing everything up to Kuroneko's FTP. I'll edit this post when it's completed.

We need texture artists who can work with the modelers specifically. Often one person is both, but not necessarily. In fact, I'd say what we really need the most are modelers who can make some really nice looking models, something current-gen and as good as say Left 4 Dead 2's models.

That, and a few more competent coders, preferably ones that have source engine experience. MSC++ has nothing on this macro-infested beast. MiB can certainly help when the time comes but we need to lay the groundwork systems out, and also make ones that don't rely on slow-ass scripts for everything. Adding a scripting system adds another layer of abstraction and slows things down.

 

[Shoon]

Hello msc once again.

Im an old time player, good 3-5 years back was last time i flash played on here, recently just checking up on any ms:s progress, long time awaiting and came across these posts. I have a group of i'd say 6 max coders, 2-3 modellers, 2-3 mappers at my disposal, if your in need of anyhelp, either search me up on steam - sasuke_kun1991 (old naruto fan, lol) or come message me over at my community forums(slightly new) http://third-gaming.com.

Thanks for reading,

Shoon
Third Gaming Management

 

[zeus9860]

Hello msc once again.

Im an old time player, good 3-5 years back was last time i flash played on here, recently just checking up on any ms:s progress, long time awaiting and came across these posts. I have a group of i'd say 6 max coders, 2-3 modellers, 2-3 mappers at my disposal, if your in need of anyhelp, either search me up on steam - sasuke_kun1991 (old naruto fan, lol) or come message me over at my community forums(slightly new) http://third-gaming.com.

Thanks for reading,

Shoon
Third Gaming Management

I remember you, it has been a while since you last showed up ingame/forums...

That offer is very nice, if any of the teams could actually get help from you and your team and work something out, would be awesome!