Gradual transition rather than great leap forward

[GwynneMyers2]

Hey guys, I have a question. Seeing how Valve released a source version of the original half life game that was in all material respects identical to the original game, couldn't the same be done for MS:C? And once it was, you could then go ahead and change it bit by bit through patches and thereby have it evolve, at whatever pace your working at, into a true MS:S. Source mods seem to take a very longtime to create, years and years, I mean just look at how long it is taking Black Mesa to come out. This probably makes recruitment and motivation harder to acquire because the gratification is so delayed and the hype-machine is weaker, and perhaps by using a more evolutionary approach both of these obstacles could be greatly mitigated. And if you never do finish, at least you have something to show for all of your work. And in the meantime, people can enjoy a fully functional partially finished product.

Maybe there are coding barriers that would make implementing this idea very labor intensive and therefore perhaps not worth the effort. However, I am interested in knowing how feasible it would be. Do you know?

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

I can see the following happening:

MS:C gets ported to the Source Engine (or preferrably the Orange Box Engine) and then the only new things we'll have for a while are fancy water reflections and physics. People will add new content and people will update old content, but (and I base this on the severe lack of quality control for MS:C) not all the old content will be properly replaced, or even replaced at all.

This will result in a modification that only looks like a Source mod for roughly 50%. The other half will still consist of old maps, models, textures and skins, some of which are just out-of-this-world ugly and/or amateuristic.

So I say: Give the MS:S team their sweet time to polish the mod and then polish it some more, because if they release some horrendous bucket of garbage (like Bloodstone - The Journey Home), people will stop caring really fast.

 

[GwynneMyers2]

I personally wouldn't mind a mixture of old and new content, and if the question were between more content that includes some old things and less content, then I would prefer to have more content. But opinions on this will vary.

One might also require that any new content must meet source quality standards so that the game will become more and more source without any race between source and HL-1 content.

 

[Age]

MS:S should hire Snow Wolf as their lead texture artist.

 

[Monika's_BFFEx0256]

MS:S should hire Snow Wolf as their lead texture artist.

+1 lols

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

While I definetly think MSS needs to take their time and polish the game as best as possible, I agree with you on one point: The old maps look absolutely nothing like the new maps. It seems as if they aren't even trying to retain the feel of MS. Thornlands needs to remind us of Thornlands, not some random set of plains. The fact is, the source engine is a piece of shit and if the MSS team does not try to capture the old feel of MS in one way or another MSS will by default be a piece of shit because it's on a terrible engine that nobody likes. Recall how there are practically zero good mods for source. This is not because the modding community suddenly became piss poor. It's because the tools they were given to work with suddenly became piss poor.

 

[Age]

While I despise almost any third party mod for Source, due to how awful they play (See: Empires), there is a higher quality standard to be held to for mapping and textures, because the engine is more advanced than Goldsrc. Not all mods are terrible though, and if you want an example of a kickin' rad mod, play Nightmare House 2. Everything about that mod kicks ass, even if it's just Singleplayer.

I actually don't know much about Source since I haven't even looked at anything related to modeling or texturing for it, so flame me for my lack of studying.

 

[Thothie]

Part of the design philosophy behind MSS, as I understand it, is to give us a game that looks a hell of a lot better than MSC, and in the long term, hopefully, plays a lot better as well.

So porting our already mis-matched range of models for expediency isn't really an option. I'd really only support such a thing, if the Half-Life1 engine became unvaible after an update, making MSC unplayable. (Not exactly an unlikely scenario, but even then, I think it'd be better if it was a separate project [MSR maybe].)

I wouldn't expect the Source maps to look much like the originals - not even in layout, for the Source maps offer quite a bit more space to work with. The grand scale world layout, if the MSS map is any indication, should at least turn out somewhat similar though.

Even after MSS is released, I expect it'll be a LONG time before it catches up with MSC in terms of scale (despite assurances to the contrary). Unless the world is very dynamic and completely self adjusting, I think it'll be awhile before it can offer as much playtime, and either way, will be a very different game. I expect, at the very least, the entire leveling system to be quite a bit different. (That's not final, btw, just one of many pending proposals.)

 

[Jelly]

I expect, at the very least, the entire leveling system to be quite a bit different. (That's not final, btw, just one of many pending proposals.)

Holy sh*t!

 

[Age]

Hot damn

 

[thesupersoup]

So I say: Give the MS:S team their sweet time to polish the mod

Thank you, sir.

if the MSS team does not try to capture the old feel of MS in one way or another MSS will by default be a piece of **** because it's on a terrible engine that nobody likes.

No comment on the engine quip. MS:S will still be Master Sword at it's core, but it's been growing and evolving over the course of it's development. It will be redolent of MS:C, but really, it's going to be a whole new thing. Not everyone will like the changes that have been made, some will, but for better or worse MS:S is what it is today. I wouldn't allow my team to do anything that I feel would destroy the experience, as I'm a fan myself of Master Sword. We're planning some fundamental changes, but we hope they will provide a unique, new, and fun experience in the long run. You can still be an everyman class if you wish, but the new system allows for much more customization and specialization.

Part of the design philosophy behind MSS, as I understand it, is to give us a game that looks a hell of a lot better than MSC, and in the long term, hopefully, plays a lot better as well.

Pretty much

I think it'll be awhile before it can offer as much playtime, and either way, will be a very different game. I expect, at the very least, the entire leveling system to be quite a bit different. (That's not final, btw, just one of many pending proposals.)

Orochi and I have had long discussions in the past of how the leveling should work, as well as the specialization I mentioned earlier. When I start getting excited for an idea, I know we're on to something, and I hope the community feels the same way. I recognize a lot of that proposal, and seeing it all laid out graphically gives me that warm, fuzzy feeling inside. I can't wait to play MS:S, honestly. I hope others feel similarly.

As soon as we are able to present gameplay footage with all the necessary ingredients in place (not necessarily polished yet, I wouldn't make you wait that long) then we will, along with all the media that's been held back in the meantime. My whole purpose for going dark was not to string anybody along with a tweaked WIP shot here, a new model there, and empty promises everywhere.

We still need help, too. If you can model, rig, or animate drop me a PM. Same for level designers, sound designers, texture artists, etc. The more, the merrier, and we have a big world to craft and populate eventually.

 

[GwynneMyers2]

Alright, well, I guess the answer is a resounding no then. And I get it more, if it is supposed to be very different from MS:C rather than just the same gameplay and maps and everything else but with better graphics

 

[DarkWasp]

See the thing is, if we clone MS:C then we'll split the MS:C community up pretty bad. And it would be like playing MS:C without the nostalgia of the old engine.

It wasn't a bad suggestion though.

When I'm mapping I like to keep all of the features of the MS:C maps intact. I try to plan areas around the bosses that are in the MS:C version of the map. I try to keep the same number of caves at minimum, but they might show up in different areas or face a different direction. I do refrain from trying to create weight/jump traps, because I MS:S's movement system will no doubt be different.