Lanethan's Musings on Games and Design

[Lanethan]

Thothie brings up a good point, and something I'm interested in as well, so I'll broaden the field with two questions:

What do you believe the biggest flaws in RPG design are?

What would be your idea of the best hybrid game design be? Try to keep in mind whether something is realistically creatable here.

 

[Netrogor]

I believe the biggest flaws in RPGs are when they overdo the grinding experience (World of Warcraft) and when they totally forget the plot that makes them into a roleplay game (Gunz Online, has the attributes, the title, no plot).

Then there is also that issue of whether or not to make it a first person RPG, third person, top-down shoot'em up RPG type (alien shooter II), or simply a side-scroller game...

I prefer first-person roleplaying games usually, since they most commonly offer high levels of interaction between players & their environments, whereas a third person usually turns out great but the best interacting you get is from killing stuff (Fable being the exception, a great third-person RPG).

Side-Scrollers, from what I've seen, are complete crap as RPGs, and top-down shoot'em up type RPGs have proven capable of being very fun, but are virtually vacant of any form of interaction with the environment, save one or two "button" like things to move onto the next level.

As to the best type of hybrid game...

I feel a good RPG should have both first person, and third person; of course it would be of preference for the first person to allow interaction down to the level offered in the modification "Dystopia" with computer screens & mini-cursors... while the third-person match up to "Fable: The Lost Chapters", which is, in my opinion, a ground shattering game in the genre of RPGs.

Of course, for a true in-depth role play game, you would desire to have a form of strategy mixed into it; the ability to create your own piece of the world makes for a great amount of entertainment... and thus far MasterSword here has shown itself as excelling in this area.

 

[Lanethan]

Interesting that you would mention sidescrolling as an undesirable medium for RPGs. I was recently thinking that sidescroller RPGs have a lot of unrealized potential, and have been considering working on a side project during my downtime working on Prayer.

 

[Netrogor]

I suppose they could be pretty good, but if you check out the current sidescrollers that are out... they suck. There are some awesome action side scrolling games, but that's about it...

If you make one, I'll trust it to come out good. MasterSword came out great, and a sidescroller would take a good deal less work then a first person shooter... so you'd be able to put in an equal amount of work and get that much more done.

 

[Lanethan]

Exactly what bad examples are you referring to? And what makes them bad? Research time.

 

[Thothie]

Interesting that you would mention sidescrolling as an undesirable medium for RPGs. I was recently thinking that sidescroller RPGs have a lot of unrealized potential,

I've wanted to make a top-down MMORPG for cell phones with net access for a long time (and in fact, I'd be doing that now, if I hadn't gotten sucked into this). Side scroller might actually be another idea for that, given the resolution involved... Still, I'm not entirely sure how you'd work out exploration and interaction with other players with something like a sidescroller.

As for the flaws in MMORPG's... Jeeze, where to start.

Time = Skill
Related to "the grind" this is simply a result of a stat-driven system. In retail games it's further encouraged as time as also equals money spent, but it is in the end a requirement for all stat driven games, to one degree or another, unless they are entirely PvP. Again, as discussed, I've tried to diminish this somewhat in MSC, in which we have a rare opportunity to do so, due to the player's maneuverability and ability to aim, but since the world isn't infinite, and can't be expanded at infinite speed, this flaw is still a requisite.

Some might argue that this is a boon and not a bane, due to the fact that your progress is more tangible than say, in a traditional FPS, where you only get better by honing your reflexes and knowledge of the game. But personally, I prefer that model of progress.

No Increase of Difficulty
The only thing that really changes, between fighting Orcs at level 5 and fighting Dragons at level 50, in most MMORPG's, is the level of visual spectacle. Even in the best MMORPG's, the most that really changes is the number of spell and special abilities you have to manage in a fight, and even then, there's generally a fixed number of these abilities that remain useful at any given level.

Some games mitigate this somewhat by requiring teamwork and originational strategy for certain tasks. We've tried to accomplish this in MSC with the Lord BS chamber, the Ice Tranny, and Foutpost. We also have a few skill based platform jumping and trap avoidance features, and more to come. But the game still has the same problem at its core.

Computer as Dungeon Master
This is the biggest flaw in the whole concept of the MMORPG. That basically, you are having a computer, with a preset story line and set of rules, do the job of that traditionally held by a human, and it simply can't do it nearly as well. It's difficult to program the computer to use strategy, respond dynamically to players, nearly impossible to get it to read their motivations, or even those that the NPC's may have, much less come up with something new to deal with them. You're stuck with a set number of responses and possibilities.

It seems to me, some of the more dynamic text-based RPG's of the late 80's were finding very clever ways to break this mold by building heuristic personality constructs around the characters in these games that evolved with interaction, as well as more adding flexibility to the world in which they lived. (This was particularly true among those directed by the late Douglas Adams, such as Bureaucracy, and Starship: Titanic, although not so much the tHGttG, which had to follow the book's storyline). They never quite entirely broke the "which-way adventure" syndrome that today's electronic RPG's all suffer from, but it seems to me that they were a hell of a lot closer to a solution to the problem, or at least mitigation of it, than any of the modern games are.

Interactive storytelling: it's a lost art.

 

[Netrogor]

Aliens for the SNES is a side-scroller, it is supposed to have an awesome plot and you're supposed to roleplay a certain character... but it totally sucks.

More so resembles a pure FPS, like Quake III, as sidescrolling hot action... and the plot is too jumpy (and hardly even existent for that matter). It is because of that game that I am a thousand times more harsh towards side-scrollers.

 

[Lanethan]

For an example of a step in the right direction (as far as Action RPGs, not necessarily the interactive story / MMORPG variety) that was being taken in the late golden age of sprite based games, can be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_% ... er_Mystara

Having played this and its prequel, I will say that these games were starting to get close to what I have been considering doing for a project. Imagine a game like this with more focus on NPC interaction, a non-linear world, character creation with all the bells and whistles you could want out of a sprite based game, plus a truly massive world to explore. Though not coming close to breaking the genre's problems, I think the new perspective would open up a lot of possibilities in a few departments: sheer size of the game world, a focus on art over realism, skill based gameplay, and in general just a new way to experience a roleplaying game. Now set that game online, make the various "levels" (to use a traditional sidescroller term) into situations akin to the "instanced dungeons" we see in today's MMORPGs, and we have an a design that excites me. Thoughts?

 

[ITS'aME'aMARIO!!!!]

Dungeons and Dragons: Shadow over Mystara is awesome.... I used to spend all my nickels at Nickel City or just played it the whole time I was there when it became free play. Now I have it downloaded on an arcade emulator.

If a game like THAT was playable online... The current MMO giants better watch their back.

 

[HumanSteak]

Ever heard of Avernum I II and III? It's not FPS or side-scrolling, and the graphics aren't wonderful, but it's a very good long lasting non-linear RPG. There's also Avernum 4 but it's a bit too linear compared to the others but the fighting system was greatly improved. If you want to know more, visit http://www.spiderwebsoftware.com These are not freebies though, but there's always a way to play without paying Even though I did pay for these.

 

[Netrogor]

Anybody ever hear of Realms of Kaos (or Khaos?)? A sprite type game as well, with chat features, somewhat colorful, and very enjoyable... it was free, until it was abandoned (no idea why, it had like five hundred people on constantly)...

I loved that game

 

[Thothie]

Dungeons and Dragons: Shadow over Mystara is awesome....

I vaguely remember that, and I think I have it in my MAME collection - is that not the epitome of which-way adventure syndrome though? And, IIRC, there's no exploration at all - it was just one gauntlet after another. At best, some choice you made at the end of the level would send you to gauntlet with a dragon of a different color at the end of it.

Knights of the Old Republic, IIRC, did, at least, take the which-way adventure to the next level, by chaining so many which-way decisions together that you could access a myriad of subplots. Some were pretty buried from what I saw on X-play, where they demonstrated how you could get one of your alien colleagues to attempt to start a gay relationship with your female character by following a series of like twenty quests and clicking on the right NPC intereaction choices.

 

[Netrogor]

Knights of the Old Republic is also pretty good in that you can mod it, add new quests, new planets, and all that good stuff...

Just hardly anybody ever does that, so it feels pretty empty...

 

[Lanethan]

Thothie: Yes indeed, Shadows over Mystara is a prime example of a "Which-way" adventure. The idea is to take the presentation of a game like that, but merge it with the design of a freeform exploration based RPG.

 

[Jelly]

There's comming an expension set for TES4: Oblivion

 

[Lanethan]

Lanethan's Musings 3
Tuesday, March 6, 2007
11:51pm

This week's topic is one that's very near and dear to my heart, something I've wanted to discuss for quite a while now: Mastersword. It'll be part history, part vision, part rant for me.

I first encountered Mastersword after its first public beta had been released to the public and Planethalflife did a "Mod of the Week" feature on it. For nostalgia's purpose, here's a link to the original article: http://planethalflife.gamespy.com/View. ... 158&game=4
But before I get to how I became involved with Mastersword, here's a little history on me as a developer:


My work with "Mods" began all the way back in the Doom era. I created a few rather abysmal "Partial Conversions" (as they were called back then), but the experience of working with a provided tool, making textures and assets for use a game, proved very useful to my entire development career. When Quake came out, I jumped on board with little hesitation, and immediately sunk my teeth into Worldcraft.

Unfortunately, I am rather terrible at the creation of "levels" in the Quake engine. Have been ever since Quake came out, have been since that same engine format has been used for years all the way up to Half-Life 2.

It was around this time that me and a few of my gradeschool friends decided we were so badass we would form our own company. If you are ready for a laugh, check out this amazing website, and more importantly our amazing projects: http://www.alaska.net/~articape/dijit/index.html
Yes, my handle was "Slayer" back then.

DiJiT wouldn't last long, but during this time period a few pivotal things would occur: After a foolhardy attempt to "make my own Quake TC," I would learn that I couldn't handle doing everything. Secondly, I ran into Fantasy Quake, possibly the biggest inspiration for me as an RPG developer for years.

I started playing Half-Life. It was like everything Quake was, just way better. And mods were getting popular, very popular. I read Planethalflife nearly on a daily basis, waiting for a great RPG conversion to come out. Something like Fantasy Quake, anything! Viola, along comes Master-Sword, PHL's mod of the week. I was enthralled.

Back then, MS didn't save your character. MS didn't really do anything. You could open up a map, walk around with a knife and poke stuff. But it was something. I saw in my head a fantastic online RPG, the kind I'd been thinking of since my feeble attempts at Quake editing, and I dreamed. I applied for the team a few months later, as a mapper of all things, and (mostly because the team was so short on developers) to my great surprise they let me on.

Dogg was, well, the Big Dog back then. In fact, whenever he periodically comes back, it seems just like "old times." Seven years ago, Dogg was pounding out code that would become the basis for an inventory system, an NPC interaction system. I remember when Edana didn't exist. We had b2... a3... and a bunch of other maps that were named like that. The original idea was that the world would be set up like a grid, with huge planes of sky at the edge where you would transition.

And I was making maps. The most horrible maps you've ever seen. Hell, one of them, Calruin, still survives to this day. Calruin is an example of the best I can do, to give you an idea, and it was the last map I made for MS.

But I was also doing other things. I learned how to make midi music, because I have always been fascinated with music creation. I just completed my fourth "album" (if you can call something you've made entirely by yourself on your computer an album) a few months ago. My midi music wasn't great, but some of it has become iconic to Mastersword: The temple theme and the town theme come to mind.

It was around this time that we got a few really talented guys to help us out. We've had talent come and go for a long time, really, including (and I'm sorry if I've forgotten your name) Lord K, who is pretty much responsible for most of the "old world" you know of, and many others. Working with you all has been exciting and rewarding, and the "Game" started to take shape around the same time I started writing "Lanethan," which would become my biggest contribution to the game.

Now some might argue and say that the myriad of sound effects, miscellanious models, and music would be the bigger contribution, but I disagree. I wrote "Lanethan" in my spare time because I wanted to feel like there was a world around Mastersword, to make it feel bigger to me. I released it on the internet because I figured people might like to read it, and the response I got was shocking to me. It's not that great of a story, and the grammar is a bit laughable at points (I was younger then).

Somewhere along the way, people started paying attention to my stories and little musings on the "world of Mastersword." The name of the world, Daragoth, was chosen at random by a few of the team members. To clear up any misconceptions now, this has changed slightly over the years: Daragoth is now the name of the continent on which the game takes place. The planet is known as "Leann." Edana was created, but it wasn't part of anything in my stories. Yet somehow, people expected it to be. We added a Temple of Balance and devoted it to a Loreldian from my story. I was delighted, and gratified that somehow, I had actually helped the team.

Seems like it paid off, over time! I created a world map, and though the "old world" maps we know so well (thornlands, sfor) were already created, they were easily integrated into these new designs. I created a history document (now embarassingly out of date, hence my new side project), a world map, and a ton of dialogue for NPCs. Hired a voice actor, wrote a ton of dialogue for the NPCs we had in the maps.

This is about the time when people started to actually "play" Mastersword. It would save your character, you could move around, fight stuff, do quests. A far cry from a game in which you could poke stuff with your dagger, no inventory, etc.

I don't want anybody to think I'm somehow saying that I'm responsible for Mastersword. In fact, I hate it when people say things like: "Oh, Lanethan, he created MS." It's Dogg's blood, sweat, and tears that made this game, as well as a ton of others who actually made the content you're seeing. Just to clear things up: I am a puffed up storyteller who made some minor assets for this game. Well, and the musician.

So, history lesson over, fast forward to present. I'm still hanging around, occaisionally throwing some side project work at you guys (Elementals, music, etc.) and doing consulting on the world of MS. Most of the lore is so spread out through so many little notes, it's difficult to get things right alot. That's why there are so many inconsistencies in the official MS lore vs. my answers to questions on forums.

In order to combat that, I've started working on a new side project: The Mastersword Documentation Revamp. It'll take a number of forms: initially, you're going to see a new version of the "History" document that is still hosted on the msremake.com site. It will strive to be completely accurate to the "final" version of the lore. Grammar issues will be corrected, some of the lore will be "matured" so that the themes are more interesting (remember I wrote most of that when I was in middle/high school), and the whole experience should be more palatable. If I can get voice acting, there will be "narration" reading the text as well. There's definitely going to be soft, ambient music.

So, discussion topic for today: What else should I do to revamp documentation? What would you like to see from me?

 

[Netrogor]

Perhaps for the documentation there could be a nicer background setup, one that is much friendly on the eyes...

Like a dull black background & dull neon-green text or something... just something a lot easier on the eyes, so people have a better reason to sit down & read it all...

Or have an easy print feature, so they can print it out & turn out their reading lamp; or whatever light they use to read...

Other than that, the voice narration sounds great; will put in a greater sense of a true roleplaying game atmosphere to Master Sword, even though it's already great.

Screenshots or links to tutorial videos for certain sections that explain how to use certain features could also help; having things go down to the very installing of patches & that such, as it'll reduce the number of people with issues playing the game or hosting their own server because they forgot what the ".cfg" files were...

All I can think of at the moment are those two ideas... softer text & background for reading, and either screen shots or tutorial videos to help teach new players & show them a good deal of on the spot professional work in modern form; as many people look for videos over text... mostly thanks to newer mods like Garry's Mod v10.

 

[Lanethan]

Lanethan's Musings 4
Wednesday, March 14, 2007
11:36pm

Today's musing is a game concept I mentioned earlier and will be elaborating on with a very basic outline. Only small sections of the design will be discussed at a time, to give a chance for feedback.

Project: Sidescrolling RPG
(the Project)

The basic premise of this game is the exploration of an open-ended world designed around "missions" and the building of a unique character in an offline or online format.

The game would be presented in a few different viewpoints: The "Overworld" view, which is a top down viewpoint showing an icon or small avatar representing your character which can move from location to location, and the "Stage" view which is a quasi-sidescroller viewpoint in which action in various locations is handled.

In "Overworld" view the character moves around freely, but when the character steps on a "Location" (designated by a graphical representation of what the location signifies, such as a town, cave, or whatever), the player is presented with a matchmaking service that allows him to enter the area alone (Offline play), look for a squad (Online play), or join a squad that is being formed at that time. Other options here may include a persistant squad setup where you and your friends could always automatically default to joining each other when locations are visited. Towns and other community areas could also be handled seperately, with a central server running them so that all players who enter a town are forced to be together, but this is optional: in fact, it may be much better to not use a central server for such things and leave them to the same system that "mission areas" use.

To give you a better idea of what I'm talking about, here's a scenario:

Player A (let's call him Dan) starts the game, selects his character file, and is dropped into the overworld at the area he was last at. Say he wants to go to the nearby cave area, so he moves his overworld character to the cave. When he arrives, an interface opens up which allows him to enter the cave alone, look for a squad entering the cave (this is basically like selecting a multiplayer server, one that is looking for squad members), or start his own squad.

Player B (let's call him Steve) starts the game, selects his character file, and uses a community interface from the overworld to chat with his friends. A few of them decide they all want to go to the cave, so they form a squad from the squad menu at the overworld (a squadleader is designated) and then move to the cave. Those players who show up are given the option to join their current squad, and when all players arrive at the cave, they enter together.

The basic principle here is the seperation of offline and online components of the game: When in the Overworld, you are in some ways "Offline" (excepting the community/chat interfaces). You do not see other players on the world map. When a squad leader is designated, whether preformed from the community interface or when forming a squad at the location in question, "Server Settings" can be chosen by the squad leader. These settings are clearly visible to those attempting to join the squad. Settings include Maximum Squadmembers (max players) and various other options relating to gameplay.

In effect, a squad leader is a server. It is similar to, say, a game matching service like Battlenet, and indeed the interface would probably be similar in some respects. When waiting for more squad members, a chat screen and the ability to "inspect" other squad members is all displayed, until the squad leader decides to hit the "Start Mission" button.

Of course, "going it alone" is pretty much the same as being your own server, just like any given offline game. The principles are the same anyway.

End of part 1. Feedback?

 

[Jax]

Lanethan, you have given me visions of a mario-ized version of MS:C.

However, it sounds like total fun. Good musing

 

[Lanethan]

Lanethan's Musings 5
Tuesday, March 27, 2007
3:14 AM

Continuing from my last musing, this is more brainstorming and ideas on the sidescrolling RPG project.
This time I'll be focusing on character creation / building.

So, the idea is that this project would use sprites for the characters, not three dimensional models. This has a number of benefits, most notably that if the sprites are created with a "skeletal system" similar to what we use to animate 3d models, they could be just as versitile and interesting while being simple to make, allowing for maximum customization.

Picture this: A "Humanoid" character is defined as having the following sets of features: An origin joint (at the base of his feet or torso), a hip joint, two leg joints, two knee joints, two feet joints, a midsection joint, a chest joint, two shoulder joints, two elbow joints, two arm joints, a neck joint, and a head joint.
Each joint has a few bits of data associated with it: Rotation, scale, depth. Depth is used for determining which order the sprites are drawn in (more on that in a second).

These joints are used to create "Bones," which are then animated, the animations stored as small animation files which we then package up later. Animations are created using forward kinematics with keyframes and interpolation, with options for affecting the rotation direction on a per keyframe basis, and depth on a per keyframe basis.

Now, the character editor from the developers point of view would allow him to create animations, etc. It would also allow him to create new "Character files," which also include graphics: Certain joints are assigned a sprite graphic, and these joints are hereby referred to as "Graphic joints."

Graphic joints would likely include: Leg joints, knee joints, feet joints, hip joints, torso joints, chest joints, shoulder joints, elbow joints, hand joints, and head joints. This is because there would be a multitude of graphics to choose from which are basically just these individual pieces: leg joints would have the upper leg, knee joints the lower leg, shoulder joints the upper arm, etc.

A graphic joint uses the depth field to determine which graphics appear in front of others. The hip joint, for example, always appears in front of the leg joints, so that the legs appear to be coming out from the hip area. Of course this process is calculated on the fly, hence the keyframes including depth changes as well.

Each graphic joint would also come with further options: Tinting (perhaps multicolor options, rather than simple full color tints), Decals (small addin graphics designed to fit on the base graphic, which include their own tinting options), etc.

An example of decals: Let's say you choose to work on the graphic joint representing the head. You select this joint, make it a graphic joint and go into the corresponding editor, and choose a head sprite. This head sprite includes just a base head, bald, with no eyes, nose, ears, or mouth (just head and chin shape). You then add a decal to it, which allows you to place a set of eyes (chosen from a list), tint these eyes, set a nose graphic, move the nose graphic up and down on the sprite as you see fit, ears graphic, mouth graphic, scar graphic, hair graphic (again with tinting options), etc.

There could be decals for any of the parts of the body too. Scars for the chest, arm tattoos, etc.


This decal system would also be used by the engine later in showing wound graphics: bloody cuts appear as decals on your chest, arms, legs, and face. Perhaps even cuts could become permanent scars through this system? Not too far a stretch.

Anyway, thats what the developer would see. As a player, creating a character has a lot of the same options, but slightly more limited. For example, you could only place eyes in say a few pixel area, rather than anywhere on the face, and same with mouth, ears, nose, hair, etc. This would simply be a good idea, because otherwise there will be a lot of people running around with five noses.

So a player would select "Create a New Character" and be given a choice of various head types, body types, etc. Each of these sections can be scaled a slight degree, and the whole skeleton can be scaled a slight amount in any of the directions (tall people, wider people, etc.) Players then work individually on the head, selecting and tinting a set of eyes, ears, nose, mouth, hair, etc.

Equipment, as you might have guessed, adds large scale decals to certain joints and changes the graphics of others. Helmets work on the decal system, replacing certain hair graphics or being placed atop others (each helmet having a set of hairs that it needs to replace). Chest pieces change the torso graphics entirely, but follow the same scaling pattern (so if you have a large chest, you have large armor, or if you're smaller, then you have smaller armor). And so on and so forth. So equipment items would have properties associated with graphic changes: They have the ability to alter the base graphic or add a decal with any sort of scaling required. This way we can show equipment down to the earring or maybe even ring level, simply by setting where the decal should appear on another decal. If the engine knows where the ears are placed and how they are scaled, it simply puts the earrings on based on the ears location and scale and moves accordingly. Interesting special effects like swirling particles of power can be done through this system too, if decals are made animatable, or perhaps be handled through a different special effects system.

So the player chooses a head and all related options, gets to do some minor scaling on individual sections of the body, chooses a starting outfit from a list and tints it accordingly, names etc, and whammo we've got a new character, and hopefully a very happy player.

 

[Netrogor]

Hmm...

So, based on what you've mused thus far, from the last time I responded myself, I feel compelled to ask this... but... are you getting any good progress in making & releasing such a side scrolling type game? I've played a few top-down image based roleplaying games before that were pretty good, and your descriptions you've painted to this point are making your little gaming project sound pretty nice.

If you are making some headway, don't hesitate to call upon me as a beta tester; I have experience in that I was privileged in beta testing Dungeon Siege II, before they released it to the public

 

[Lanethan]

None of this is concrete, hence the 'musing.' It is an idea I've been tossing around for a while, and one that I want to formalize into something whole and concrete, but no actual production work is being done. I'm far too busy working on Prayer to get any of this stuff done.