One handed spells?

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Since duel wielding is supposedly being implemented is it now possible to create one handed spells that could be used either in conjunction with other spells or with melee weapons?

It seems like it wouldn't be too difficult to make one handed versions of spells like fire dart, erratic lightning, acid bolt, and frost bolt. How feasible is an idea like this?

 

[jon50559]

I like this idea! Sort of how some elemental weapons have a much weaker variant of _X_ spell, 1H versions of spells which are much weaker would be a treat.

 

[Orochi]

I would love to be able to use fireball or erratic lightning while wielding a weapon in my other hand. I would also like to see that fucking timer for how long you have it prepared removed, so magic isn't so shitty.

 

[Thothie]

Can't be done under the current spell system, especially not with scrolls, and not likely in the next one either - best you'll likely see is spells with alternating hands attacking.

As for spell duration, I already gave everyone magical viagra so they can always get their spells up, and if you keep one up for more than four hours you gotta see a doctor so... But I was considering tweaking the concentration cap. Concentration isn't affecting spell duration nearly as much as it should, as the cap is set way too low IMO. I'd eliminate duration completely, but on top of eliminating spell failure, it gets into nasty rebalancing territory.

Wish we could figure where that movement slow down from memorized spells is taking place and get rid of that though - burried deep in the code somewherez... :\

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Can't be done under the current spell system, especially not with scrolls, and not likely in the next one either - best you'll likely see is spells with alternating hands attacking.

Can't you just create a new item, rather than trying to fit this into the old scroll system? Even if you did that, you could still call it a scroll.

 

[Orochi]

I don't think it'd unbalance it nearly as much as you think. It would be great for lower-end spells like fireball and chain lightning because they've been nerfed into oblivion anyway (Fireball is mediocre DPS wise and Chain Lightning is pathetic), and all you'd need to do is limit how many firewalls/blizzards/lightning storms/volcanoes a player a can have at once. Even if one-hand spells aren't possible, please allow players to select memorized spells as a weapon and keep it out, the whole "Losing prepared spells" is BS anyway, especially for spells like Lightning Storm which can be channeled.

tl;dr put spell failure back in, allow those who do manage to prepare it to keep it until cancelled.

 

[Thothie]

I don't like spell failure as it makes it harder to figure DPS over long periods of time, and it's something characters have no way of predicting or compensating for. Additionally, due to the wonky way scrolls were applied, they have no spell failure - so it's unfair to memorized spells (which really, should be *better* than scrolled spells, if anything). Needing to pause to re-prepare a spell is easier to predict and deal with. It'd require *some* rebalancing over all save a few spells to axe it completely (and a few spells, like Summon Guardian, kinda depend on it). There's already limits to the number of sustained spells a player can have active, but that's a measure against entity floods rather than balance.

You can select memorized spells as weapons (via quickslots) - it's only the scrolls that fail in that regards.

If I were to bypass the base_magic_hand system entirely, and re-write it from scratch, bypassing the weapon registration, I *might* be able to work out something for one handed spells, except without code changes, the way scrolls pass spells *requires* them to be two handed. Would help to have some sort of clear-specific-hand and pass to specific hand function, I suppose, but even with that, a bunch of other issues would no doubt crop up. The whole re-writing the spell system is a daunting enough task on the to-do list as it is though.

 

[Orochi]

I can understand losing the prepared spell for spells like Blizzard, Firewall, and Volcano, but losing it for Lightning Storm is total BS because it's channeled. Also, losing the prepared spell for lower level spells like Fire Ball/Chain Lightning/Ice Bolt/Fire Dart/Erratic Lightning is BS too, because they suck anyway, and they could be considered the mainstay spell "weapons", as far as that goes.; they are the "submachine gun" to the higher-end spells' "rocket launcher". So it's annoying to lose the preparedness on a spell like Fire Ball because it's the magical equivalent of a shotgun. Blizzard/Firewall/Volcano, I can understand, being above-average power spells of their school. I say above average because overall, Spellcasting is shafted in MS:C, being more of a supplementary skill than a mode of combat.

You wouldn't force a Swordsman to have to sheath and unsheath his blade every few seconds, don't force a mage to re-draw his main weapon every few seconds.

 

[Thothie]

Not saying I like the spell duration limitations, in most cases. Just saying it changes the numbers. Fixing an "underpowered" spell without rebuilding the whole system is not an option at the moment, as it changes the whole ramp. Butterfly effect and all. Pushing things enough by changing the concentration ratios (probably going to have to undo that for some spells, not tested thoroughly enough to run the numbers proper yet.)

 

[Orochi]

Why don't you try it out ingame? Statistics and numbers cannot explain everything in a game where a player has more freedom of movement and surroundings matter; there is always the Human Factor in games like these. Why would it be such a bad thing to help lower level mages along by letting them use their spells without interruption? It honestly wouldn't change much, save for a player wouldn't have to think about re-preparing Fire Ball every few seconds.

In MS:S, we'll be doing away with spell failure and duration and using a Cast Delay/Cast Time/Cooldown system for spells.

 

[Thothie]

Why don't you try it out ingame?

WTH did you think "not tested thoroughly enough to run the numbers proper yet" meant? Ya don't need testing to go by numbers alone.

But yes, letting lower level spells level characters faster breaks the whole system. Tried and tested that many a time. Otherwise we would not be rebuilding the whole system from scratch to begin with. There's some wiggle room though, hence the concentration mod boost that needs testing. (It is at least a bit safer than eliminating duration entirely, as it affects higher level chars more than lower level ones.)

 

[Orochi]

It's not really letting them level faster, just removing an inconvenience that really shouldn't be there in the first place. It would just be more convenient to let them be able to keep the spell up than having to re-prepare it all the time, since weapon users don't have the same issues. If you're re-designing the spell system (I.E. adding ACTUAL new spells and not spellcasters to use weapons from other skills to level up...) then fine, but as it stands the spell system is incredibly lacking.

Starting anew, you can barely level Affliction because there is no medium-level spell like Fire Ball or Chain Lightning to use. Don't even talk to me about Poison, because that is pure garbage, even for a novice spell. Fire, Ice, and Lightning tend to be okay, though Ice has no medium-level spell either. Divination is crippled beyond redemption, as the only way to level that beyond the pathetic Rebuke Undead is the Golden Axe, an item that is exceedingly difficult to procure the funds for if you are a newer player.

You removed Summoning and Protection from the list but never removed them from the level calculations? What's up with that? Why is it so bad that spellcasting be on par with your other stats in terms of level? If it's a technical problem then I suppose you could discount that, but intentionally crippling spellcasting levels compared to other stats? My Spellcasting substats are all 26. All my other weapon skills are at 26. My SC level is 20. What the hell? Let Wizard be a viable title option, FFS. Just change the total SC level requirements on the spells. I really don't see why this is such a big deal.

tl;dr stop crippling the spellcasting stat levels by factoring in the invisible Summoning and Protection, and get medium-level spells for each of the Spellcasting substats.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Divination is crippled beyond redemption, as the only way to level that beyond the pathetic Rebuke Undead is the Golden Axe, an item that is exceedingly difficult to procure the funds for if you are a newer player.

To be fair, I like the idea that some spells are harder to obtain/level. I don't think you should be able to buy an affliction spell at the beginning of the game like you can fire dart. I like the idea of certain magics being taboo in MSC society and therefore difficult/impossible to buy in shops. I like that its very difficult to level divination early on, too. It makes certain spell types feel more valuable if they are harder to obtain in the beginning. I think taking steps like this is enough to keep the spell casting skill artificially low. I support the fact that you cannot get a snake-staff or poison spell anywhere but from a difficult boss at bloodrose. I do not, however, support the fact that the spells in question suck massively. Nor do I support the fact that they are among the only spells in the game.

You removed Summoning and Protection from the list but never removed them from the level calculations? What's up with that?

This might have made sense if the argument was 'if SC levels too quickly the players will gain a disproportionate amount of Mana'. However, I don't think that applies since players were, for no reason whatsoever, just given large sums of mana for leveling up the parry skill. Which, I might add, requires the player to do jack shit.

I agree that having 5 subskills for spell casting is not enough. I think there should be exactly as many SC skills as there are skills in general. There are 8 skills currently, including spell casting. To keep things balanced I'd like to see 8 subskills for SC. Something along the lines of Fire, Ice, Water, Lightning, Wind, Earth, Affliction and Divination seems appropriate to me. It'd be really easy to get any new category added on par with our current spells in terms of power and usefulness. The spells from Wizard Wars are ripe for the taking.
Ultimately, I'd like each spell category MSC has to have every different 'type' of attack available to them (damage, healing, buff, debuff). However, some skills should be naturally more adept at dealing damage (fire) than healing (divination). Fire should have a select few healing spells, but they should not be able to compete fairly with Div healing spells. Other spells should be best at buffing allies (water?) while others still should debuff enemies (affliction).

IMO, fixing SC should be one of the most pressing items on the 'to be done' list.

 

[Thothie]

tl;dr stop crippling the spellcasting stat levels by factoring in the invisible Summoning and Protection, and get medium-level spells for each of the Spellcasting substats.

Not arguing the point anymore. We are not increasing the leveling speed of SC 200% by changing the division, thus allowing players to gather new spells that much faster, thus hit the level wall that much faster. We are not doing anything to increase the rate at which characters level in any category without a global rebalancing act. [/standard team-whine reply]

 

[Orochi]

You're misunderstanding my argument, I just want the invisible stats removed from the calculation so that the level works out properly alongside the other weapon skills. Also, you should have the capability to level each stat because of how Spellcasting is calculated; it's the sum of all the subskills divided by the total amount of subskills (5 + 2 invisible ones which are fixed at 1, currently). No other skill does this, therefore it's necessary that players be able to level them up together.

And Thothie, I'm not part of team whine. I love how you label anyone who argues with the status quo a member of team-whine. I just want the SC levels to level at a bloody normal rate compared to the other skills. When you have every other skill level 26, and it took the same amount of effort to get Spellcasting to 20, there's something bloody wrong with it.

Why don't you try making the SC requirements for spells in a given school be based on the level in that school instead? Then, SC level wouldn't matter as much, and you could safely factor out the two invisible skills, thus restoring Spellcasting to showing the proper bloody level? Even with the current system all the subskills hit the cap at 40. All you've done is permanently fix the Spellcasting stat level to never look like it's reached 40.

 

[Thothie]

You're misunderstanding my argument, I just want the invisible stats removed from the calculation so that the level works out properly alongside the other weapon skills. Also, you should have the capability to level each stat because of how Spellcasting is calculated; it's the sum of all the subskills divided by the total amount of subskills (5 + 2 invisible ones which are fixed at 1, currently). No other skill does this, therefore it's necessary that players be able to level them up together.

And increase the rate of SC leveling exponentially for the sake of a bit of intuitiveness?
In a system where folks are already leveling more than four times faster than intended?
In a word? No.

If I were to decrease XP from spells globally by 39%, on the code side, it could be done, but then folks complain why spells give 39% less XP than any other skills - so what's the difference?

And yes... The future system is to give SC requirements to individual schools, and yes, that divider goes bye bye under said system, but again, that requires a completely rebalanced, rebuilt system. You can't rebalance sky scrapers this large from the bottom up. Ya gotta tear em down. Otherwise you're just playing Janga.

 

[Orochi]

That's all I wanted to hear. You made it sound as if it was never gonna be fixed, or going to continue to be that way under the rebalanced system. If that future system is indeed in our future somewhere, then I'm happy.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

If I were to decrease XP from spells globally by 39%, on the code side, it could be done, but then folks complain why spells give 39% less XP than any other skills - so what's the difference?

You could simply make each sub skill require more exp than it currently does.

 

[Thothie]

If I were to decrease XP from spells globally by 39%, on the code side, it could be done, but then folks complain why spells give 39% less XP than any other skills - so what's the difference?

You could simply make each sub skill require more exp than it currently does.

*sigh*

You ever see this movie?

No? Guess ya missed that one, eh?

[/rage]

Meh, go ahead and see it now, preferably just after a few hits of acid, it kinda has a point. >_>

 

[Age]

Clam down, Toothie, it's just a living hell.

 

[Noshie]

Thooth, if it hurts to program it in don't do it, you have much better things to do, like make orcfor, because you're ...FABULOUS!

 

[Thothie]

Thanks, but CMD is FABULOUS, I'm just open minded, at best.

Again, just don't think it can be done without rewriting the spell system from scratch - I dun mean just the spells, but the whole deployment system.

 

[Postal]

Didn't I post this suggestion like a year ago o.o

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=7383

Edit:// oh yea, so that's how it went before...

 

[ceriux]

why not for lower level spells after your trained high enough in them just make a new animation and automatically make them 1 handed by keeping them as a two handed weapons script side and do like quake 1 does with the nail gun... essentially the animation simulates two hands held out pumping forward then back left then right. while you fire two instances of the entity one a few seconds after the other as its own function and add it to the firing spell for that level?

I dont know if this would help any but this is how it works in qc also an example on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LSjF9Ji5Xc (time marker 8:03/1428.)

void(vector org, vector dir) launch_spike =
{
	newmis = spawn ();
	newmis.owner = self;
	newmis.movetype = MOVETYPE_FLYMISSILE;
	newmis.solid = SOLID_BBOX;

	newmis.angles = vectoangles(dir);
	
	newmis.touch = spike_touch;
	newmis.classname = "spike";
	newmis.think = SUB_Remove;
	newmis.nextthink = time + 6;
	setmodel (newmis, "progs/spike.mdl");
	setsize (newmis, VEC_ORIGIN, VEC_ORIGIN);		
	setorigin (newmis, org);

	newmis.velocity = dir * 1000;
};

void(float ox) W_FireSpikes =
{
	local vector	dir;
	local entity	old;
	
	makevectors (self.v_angle);
	
	if (self.ammo_nails >= 2 && self.weapon == IT_SUPER_NAILGUN)
	{
		W_FireSuperSpikes ();
		return;
	}

	if (self.ammo_nails < 1)
	{
		self.weapon = W_BestWeapon ();
		W_SetCurrentAmmo ();
		return;
	}

	sound (self, CHAN_WEAPON, "weapons/rocket1i.wav", 1, ATTN_NORM);
	self.attack_finished = time + 0.2;
	self.currentammo = self.ammo_nails = self.ammo_nails - 1;
	dir = aim (self, 1000);
	launch_spike (self.origin + '0 0 16' + v_right*ox, dir);

	self.punchangle_x = -2;
};

 

[Thothie]

Which is more or less what we're after with the rapid fire rapid mana regen spell approach. Granted, like the nail gun, both hands be tossing fireballs or what not.

Still wonderin if we can pull this cleanly. I think pure projectiles run too much overhead, so some sort of CL effect that can report on its own sprite landings might be easier on the server, although may suffer more from lag differential. Experiments to be done, no doubt...