Self Adjusting Map System

[Thothie]

I thought I'd post this here to get suggestions on tweaking the self adjusting map system. It's a bit haphazard as it's working now, and I suspect the pure-HP approach is going to be defunct in the future (especially by Titles), but, on the other hand, it also seems to be going more smoothly than I initially expected.

(copy/pasta from patch thread follows)

Should explain how the game calculates your treasure on self-adjusting maps. It does so by averaging the level monsters boosted themselves to against the number slain. The downside to this, is that if you started with some weak characters, and the epic-hero-squad-of-death joins later, said epic-hero-squad-of-death may not get quite as good a treasure layout as they would have, had they been there from the beginning, for their average will be dragged down. (This also prevents folks from sliding through the map with low level characters, and reconnecting with their mains for better treasure afterwards.)

Much like the monsters, the treasure chests names are suffixed with their level. With some crappy rolls, a level II chest maybe better than a level III, but your odds are certainly better at III, and more than two tiers removed more or less eliminates such issues. In the case of orc_for, the number of chests you have found is also a factor, and the uniques only spawn on the last few chests (7+ of 9, though the order the chests are found doesn't matter).

 

[Srgnt Rehab]

It works for some maps, but I would not like to see this in the majority of maps.
thats my 2cents... if you'd like more, give me a quarter.

 

[Thothie]

Yes, having all maps be self adjusting kinda hampers the purpose of leveling, so never really intended that. Plus it'd be a boatload of work - this system isn't something you can just "turn on" and expect to work right without a lot of tweaking. However, having several new self-adjusting maps down the road would help with the replay value for said maps, and maybe generate less complaints about "there's not enough maps of level X! :...(" from the high end and low end alike.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

I would like to see the self adjusting system used very sparingly in almost every map. It would be cool if there were a hidden or otherwise out of the way monster(s) that did scale, just so high levels would have something to do in (almost) every map. I would not want the majority of the monsters to scale, however. Just one or two optional enemies that serve no purpose other than to provide a challenge.

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

I agree, minus the self-adjusting part.

It's very easy for mappers to add extra challenging monsters that only spawn in a certain maximum or average HP range, with a certain amount of players present or even with a certain spawn chance (like the thornlands orc raid).
It's even possible to spawn monsters based on the time of day and the weather. It's also possible to spawn certain items (like keys to "high level doors") only if the extra monsters show up. That way an additional area in a map is blocked off for low and mid-levels who are just minding their business - ie. the regular area of the map.

However, this can only be done if mappers aren't excessively lazy. Also, the standard awfully linear layouts most maps have don't really give ideas like this much room.

 

[Aische]

would be good if it where possible to self adjust based on average hp
so that a group of 6 players of 400 to 500 hp doesnt get monsters ment for 3 high level players ( with good potions )
or maybe raising the hp or quantity of monsters based on total hp and the qality based on average hp
and for a lower tier but lots of players have a good chance to get good low or mid level gear
for example with 6 players on the server
low tier ( maybe 200 to 500 average hp ) = good chance to get a level 15 weapon
mid tier ( maybe 500 to 800 average hp ) = good chance to get a 40 strength armor
high tier ( maybe 800+ average hp ) = good chance to get a level 35 weapon

 

[The Man In Black]

Is this just for determining loot or for the monsters as well? If it's just about loot, have the GM spawn the chests based on the total number of damage points given (only including the currently connected players). Low-level players would naturally have lower damage points if the monsters are scaling. It also stops coming back on your mains as your previously-spawned weaklings have all the damage points, whereas your mains have 0 points. You MIGHT have to adjust so as to not allow healing to factor into this new curve, so as to stop exploits.

If we're talking about monsters, well.. If you want to do a whole lot of rewriting, you could have default hp->monster-script equations (script_name + min(totalhp/2000), meaning goblin_elite5 for 10,000 total hp), or have an FGD-parameter for adding your own equation of this type. Of course, the less-file-intensive and less confusing course would be to have individual equations in the scripts to scale up power/damage and turn on/off ability variables. Could have flags in the FGD for min/max levels.

 

[Tigerkev]

However, this can only be done if mappers aren't excessively lazy. Also, the standard awfully linear layouts most maps have don't really give ideas like this much room.

Or if they would atleast know how it works, there's just not a good documentation about every tiny bit out there, resulting in most maps having boring encounters.

 

[Thothie]

would be good if it where possible to self adjust based on average hp

Instant Problem: ten 400hp players get less treasure and weaker mobs than one 800hp player. (Also the problem one very low level character skewing the average to hell, leading to "Kick the newb!")

It also stops coming back on your mains as your previously-spawned weaklings have all the damage points, whereas your mains have 0 points.

This is already dealt with. The self-adjusting maps capture and track the average adjustment level of monsters killed throughout the map. If you start with your weak chars and come back with your mains, the average gets dragged down. The other way around isn't as much of a concern, as you might have well just transferred any loot between the chars. While it has been thus dealt with, the issue as a whole isn't all that big a deal, however, as it is, in most cases, still just as time consuming to work through the map with weaker characters.

There are special triggers mappers can use to fire events based on average HP though.

If we're talking about monsters, well.. If you want to do a whole lot of rewriting, you could have default hp->monster-script equations (script_name + min(totalhp/2000), meaning goblin_elite5 for 10,000 total hp), or have an FGD-parameter for adding your own equation of this type. Of course, the less-file-intensive and less confusing course would be to have individual equations in the scripts to scale up power/damage and turn on/off ability variables. Could have flags in the FGD for min/max levels.

There's a global scale function in the scripts, however, and this where the real problem lay, it doesn't work smoothly for a lot of monsters, especially amongst large level ranges.

In Orc_For's case, each and every monster script has it's own individualized scale system. Due to our monsters varying so wildly with how fast they move, how easily they are avoided, attack frequency, DPS, and effects, there's no way to make a reliable global formula for scaling them all. Thus, some monsters adjust at different levels, some adjust damage more than HP, or visa versa - and this why you'll often see monsters of different tiers in Orc_For, even when the total HP present has not changed. Even then, in a few cases, it's quite a bit off. The spiders towards the end, for instance, are way off, but I left them that way as an end-level XP reward.

Even on Catacombs, where you have a much narrower level range, various monsters have their own scales, but with the narrow level range, it wasn't necessary to individualize their script, just to provide separate HP and DMG scales for some.

Both maps have lots of instances where the scaling has to be "nerfed", map side, via an addparam (essentially, scale by a max of X tiers), but usually, in those instances, the monster either only appears at a higher tier, and/or is already very powerful to begin with.

Or if they would atleast know how it works, there's just not a good documentation about every tiny bit out there, resulting in most maps having boring encounters.

For reasons described above, the system is more or less undocumentable (or at least, very difficult to document). But the primary reason it isn't documented is to prevent players strategizing ways to get "just the right total HP" for the sweet spot, and exploiting the system, while kicking out anyone who skews their formula. I'll go so far as to say that, depending on the map, currently, 4k or 5k totalhp of players will max all monsters out - although treasure chances can still be aided by additional players beyond that total, regardless of their HP.


It'd be nice if all our monsters were formula built, so they could calculate and scale themselves based on a "level". Thus we could adjust monsters simply by adding more levels, and adjust experience by the difference between the monster level and the level of the player that killed them, as some of the better MORPG's do, but alas... It'd mean re-writing each and every single monster from scratch, in addition to revamping the whole XP system.

...Something for the MSS developers to keep in mind, I suppose.

 

[The Man In Black]

I never said a global formula. You may hit me, now.