Chimz

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ATTENTION: PROJECT HAS BEEN SHUT DOWN!

For info on why this map was shut down, read the last reply in the second page.
All you see underneath is the history of this map before it was shut down.


If you wish to take a look at the map file yourself or even continue it, you can find it here in the Abandoned Archives page.
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Hi, I was thinking of making a map for MSC. An abandoned Water Temple. We had Cleicert which was a temple of lightning, now I want to make a temple for water. And the transition point will be at the end of Cleicert. I'm posting about it here to see if it's likable and interesting enough for me to work on. So, let me know what you think.

I haven't completely worked on the whole backstory yet, but the idea in my head is that in this temple, water was somewhat of a holy matter. A cleansing matter actually.. The most divine thing in this world, the source of life. It was built by humans.
They worshiped water in all of it's forms; Liquid, solid, steam. And so, all three forms can be found in the temple.

*in some time in the past* the temple was attacked by the undead. They destroyed many parts of the temple and almost sealed all of it's doors. Now the undead roam it's halls and rooms, waiting for someone to dare step inside it's cursed walls.

While the temple is almost destroyed, it still is beautiful to look at. With water flowing in the glass walls and under the ground, pools of cleansing water, water fountains, artificial waterfalls, the light blue shining crystals and small floor tiles and many other things alike. With the final boss being a giant Ice Skeleton (I guess like the one at the end of ms_snow).

Here are some pictures (keep in mind that this is just the start of my work and no part is decorated/detailed and fixed half as much as it should be so go easy on me):

The Symbol of the temple (first thing you see when you walk in):
http://s6.uplod.ir/i/00880/e85s1kxod2v0.jpg

The entrance. And those are glass parts with water flowing down in them:
http://s6.uplod.ir/i/00880/mb7rcs9qz06m.jpg

A flooded bathroom with it's walls ruined because of decay and moss growth:
http://s6.uplod.ir/i/00880/r3wijqkgnwza.jpg

One of the main halls of the temple:
http://s6.uplod.ir/i/00880/r905c2t26pkp.jpg

One of the rooms:
http://s6.uplod.ir/i/00880/a6gmrjif8w8a.jpg

ATTENTION: Newer pictures are provided in the newer replies. Check them out.


There might be a human priest's spirit in one part. I haven't decided where or what he would say, but I might make one. Either that or an old, trapped high priest.



So, let me know what you think of this map. I'd really appreciate your honest opinions.
Feel free to make any suggestions you want. I'd be glad to hear them.



ATTENTION: I will be posting new updates of the map as replies to this post. To see the new contents and notes about the map, just scroll down.
Be sure to read all the descriptions before posting a comment because otherwise it might not really turn out useful.
 
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Thothie

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Re: New Map - Water Temple

Nice...

Dun have a lore spot for it, but it works well enough... Closest thing we do have The Sunken Ruins of Adel on the concept map list, but I think the intent was for it to be mostly underwater, and that could be rather complicated.
 

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Re: New Map - Water Temple

Thothie said:
Nice...

Dun have a lore spot for it, but it works well enough... Closest thing we do have The Sunken Ruins of Adel on the concept map list, but I think the intent was for it to be mostly underwater, and that could be rather complicated.



Hmm, ok I just read that and that would be a fun map to play actually. But since right now this is about a water temple, how about this then?: The temple was built in this city and when the flooding happened, the temple was sealed from within. Stopping any water from coming in or out (and since the temple WAS built to have water run in its walls and floors, it would make sense). And there's a bit of irony in it that water is not only what they worshiped as a holy matter, but also what caused their deaths.

My original idea was for the temple to be built on a lake/river so it would have running water around it to be used inside, but in this case it also works. Being as how it's at the bottom of a sea/lake/river.

In this case, the only way to get inside this temple is through a portal (which I currently haven't decided in which map it will be).



So, will this new idea fit in or be good with the lore?
 

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Re: New Map - Water Temple

What I think about when looking at the map, are the sunken ruins of adel connected to ocean crossing. I dont know whats the Lore of the ruins but i think a water Temple could be placed before the ruins to ocean crossing or maybe a standalone plane connected to ocean crossing
 

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Re: New Map - Water Temple

Meh, we can squeeze it in somehow...

Mind ye, we don't require the map to fit into the lore perfectly for it to be published. In fact, a lot of the lore is built around and spawned from the maps we've gotten, rather than the other way around. Not that I don't get all giddy when we actually get a lore map, but so long as one isn't making demands to fundamentally alter the world (adding some new over-god or what not) it's generally good to go. Given that powerful elementals exist, elemental temples aren't a problem. There's all sorts of powerful beings that could generate cults of worship in the Fatesworn universe other than the gods themselves (and some of them already have). Hell, I'll take gay Lanethan fanfic at this point.
 

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UPDATE:

So I've scrapped the old map, kept a few parts that would be useful and rebuilt the entrance and main hall. (mainly because the structure was bad and felt more like a long hallway than a temple).
It still needs work to make it more detailed and better. For now this is just a show and tell of what it's going to look like. It is also the reason why there some light entities with no light source like a crystal.

The entrance is now more reasonable as it leads to a beautiful hall which shows the glory of the temple.
The main hall has white stairs elevating it.
The main hall has gotten bigger and now has pillars.
The ceiling is not only one texture anymore. It has been detailed to be more beautiful and convincing that was actually a nice temple.


Here are some pics of the new structure:

POV from entrance:
http://s6.uplod.ir/i/00880/lemgglu8vo10.jpg

The new main hall's stairs:
http://s6.uplod.ir/i/00880/u7bg9wy1fy1t.jpg

The new Main Hall (will be detailed more later):
http://s6.uplod.ir/i/00880/liojb7m0bcaw.jpg

The new Main Hall (different angle):
http://s6.uplod.ir/i/00880/za1tuz00fc2w.jpg

A Light Crystal Chandelier:
http://s6.uplod.ir/i/00880/ezkmg5ra6kex.jpg

A fallen and broken Light Crystal Chandelier:
http://s6.uplod.ir/i/00880/a9fhpigh3ojy.jpg

The entrance (pov is from the main hall):
http://s6.uplod.ir/i/00880/nermwy500qw5.jpg




Still got a lot to do and a lot of more details to add but right now, all I can say is that I'm really glad I rebuilt this.

ALSO:
I was thinking of making a destructed part in the map that is flooded with water. t=But I scrapped it because if it was going to have big leaks leading to the outside of the temple and in that case the temple would probably be filled by water by now. So instead, this is how I'm going to force the players to swim a little:
One part of the temple has all of it's heavy doors shut and the player cannot open them. The ground has been wrecked and broken and so have some of the water containers. So now there are giant hollow parts in the ground filled with water which some of them lead to each other. These parts will be the only way for the players to reach the rooms on the other side of the doors. Although some parts will go through rooms and halls to make it more fun.
Since I want the players to have to swim more than just a few seconds, the underwater part will be a wreckage filled with rocks, broken parts of the temple and etc. These will create obstacles and small pathways for the players to travel. So, if we say that we perhaps have a tunnel-like structure under the water which player must pass through, instead of letting him swim in a straight line in the tunnel, we'll make him have to go up and down, left and right trying to squeeze himself through the holes between the wreckages. There will be no "break-time" places for the player to breath some air and catch their breath. Because with 900 hp, you don't really worry about drowning cause it takes minutes! While we have all of this, we will also have lots of sharks and slimes under water to stall the player, lower his oxygen level and his health and prevent him from healing himself underwater and cheating (since you can just heal yourself underwater and not drown). This also and create more stress and add more gameplay time to the map cause without them the player can just swim through the whole thing real fast.
Also this part of the map will not just be a one way path. It will have holes that lead to a few rooms which the player must visit to grab keys or press keys in order to open the final door. So basically, I'm trying to make this part feel longer and more stressful than it would normally be.


I guess that's all I have in mind right now. If you have any comments, suggestions or feedback, I'd be glad to hear them.
 

zeus9860

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Water temple you say?

Some suggestions (not entirelly sure if they are possible to make):

-underwater maze/puzzle that requires 2 players, make it so that the water damages you overtime as soon as you get in it (5hp per tick), forcing the player to keep moving;

-a room inside the temple that gets flooded fast with the same damage water after a fight or while some creature walks in or passes by, something along the lines of "Yay we slayed this beast, oh s***!" or "What the hell was that thing? Oh crap!";

-underwater battle/boss battle similiar to atholo in bloodrose, have like 4 safe spots inside a large underwater room with a nasty npc swimming in it, safe spots could make you "immune" to the damaging water for a short time, forcing you to move around once every couple seconds. Safe spots will spawn and only trigger when one player gets in it. Perhaps have the water here do higher damage to make sure people use the safe spots, along with making the boss immune to vampyric (as long as it is balanced).

-make a shortcut in the map that works similiar to a slide and passes through all checkpoints in the map, to get off the slide you could drop down a hole, so i guess some sort of tunnel on top of each room with quick water running in it that pushes you to the furthest checkpoint you reached before dieing. Tunnel is open from the very start, but each room is blocked with debris untill you clear the rooms normally.

-would be nice to have a variety of wildlife (plants, fish, maybe some humanoid creatures) in the temple, but i suspect this is hard to accomplish, water maps aren't that popular, plus the game most likely lacks in underwater critters to suit that.

I haven't really read all the comments since im lacking on time right now but this was some sort of "fast brainstorming" that could help you get some ideas of your own added into the map.
 

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Wow Zeus, that was quite a brainstorm!

Well these are some nice suggestions though I think I will make some small changes to them and consider using them cause they sound fun!

About the under water boss fight; I don't really like it. Sorry. That just seems too annoying and already not many players like underwater fights. Although I will use your "damaging water" idea somewhere around the map. Probably in the waste parts. Or in the underwater part (mentioned below).

The underwater maze puzzle would be nice. Though I won't make it the classic standard maze. I hate those. I've seen it in m2_quest. I'll think about it and see what I can make out of it in the underwater rubbish part. I will probably use your "damaging water" idea here. It will be much better than putting slimes and it will make the players more stressed and disrupting their focus on where they are and where they should go. In this case I might put some breathing holes where players can get out of water. That is in case the players cannot heal themselves underwater with Rejuvenation. Cause if they can, the breathing holes will be removed.


The slide idea I didn't quite get but I'm gonna combine it with the Flooding Room idea.

I like the "room getting flooded". I guess I'll put it after fighting a hero (low class boss), all the doors get shut and the room starts to get flooded. But a hatch in the floor will open after a few seconds which the players could swim out of. Combining this with the slide idea, the players will be pushed into a pipe with a strong water stream and end up in a lower part of the temple. Making the pipe into a water slide pipe. A portal will be opened near the start so players who respawn/join can get to the lower parts. Newly joined players do not get to enjoy the slide. That's only for the people who started the map :mad:
Although I might put some small water slides on the two sides of some stairs. If the stairs are big and long enough. It will make it look nicer because there will be water coming down from both sides of it and it will be fun because the players can jump on them and slide down on them. Still, the opportunity must be available. If I won't plant some big stairs, these slides won't be available. Or if I just decide to scrap them.

I do like the idea of wildlife but the problem is that since this temple has been sealed off for a while, there wouldn't really be any food for creatures to survive. So instead I'm just putting some plants around the temple which I say "do not need light to grow" and their water and nutrients are provided by the watering system implanted in the temple (with the watering system having nutrients poured into the water). So we will be seeing some green parts in the map. But since the temple has a lot of plants, there might be some rats I guess. Feeding off the fruit of the plants.



Thanks for the ideas! Will be glad to hear more.
 

zeus9860

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The underwater puzzle idea came from TFC, i remember playing some maps that forced you to crouch swim or swim across multiple rooms with small cracks on the walls/doors/windows. It was kinda annoying since you had to be fast to get across to the other side without drowning. There were also maps that you had to swim on acid with temporary immunity.
The idea of the maze is to have something that actually makes people work together in this game, not your casual walk in the park where you can do everything on your own. Something along the lines of, two different paths, one opens the other one and vice versa untill both sides are cleared and join back up in the same room.


The boss idea, i had two ideas but i thought that one was probably the best one out of the two, since it's not your casual "sit right here and kill this thing using vampyric weapons" type of fight. Anyways, the other idea i discarded was to lure the boss/mini boss into traps to kill it. You could attempt killing it the normal way using weapons, though it would take much longer doing this than using the traps, i guess the xp reward could be the reason to kill it normally. But now that i have more time and think of it, this idea might actually be better and has more potential to it than i originally thought. Say this mini boss or whatever it would be is something along the lines of "guardian of the temple", in order to proceed, you have to kill it to proove you are worthy of getting inside the temple for example. The room you fight this thing in could be something like a dark room with some light presence openings (eg: tiny light beams coming from the outside world), if you manage to lure the enemy into these light spots and crack them open (walls, windows or whatever), they would suffer heavy damage for standing in the light. Like a giant fish or something that dislikes the presence of light and enjoys staying in dark areas.

The flood room just had to be a thing in a flooded map, its probably the most logical thing to add out of everything i mentioned, i would imagine there are flooded rooms and rooms that will get flooded as adventurers would mess around with things in the temple.

The water slide idea is basically a different type of shortcut that i thought would be fun and refreshing, rather than having a portal/teleport that will literally just teleport you to where you should be like most other maps do, instead make a quick access tunnel that connects to all major rooms in the map, use quick running water to push the player to where he should be going everytime he gets in the tunnel. But i guess having a portal is fine too, just throwing ideas out there for some innovation.

The wildlife idea, i was mostly thinking about vegetation when i wrote that down, having plants scattered in the map with perhaps a few animals here and there showing some wildlife presence. Usually where there is water, there is life, so they say. But yeah "damage water" could kill off these critters i guess.
 

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Uh, Zeus, 2 of the things you said don't fit in at all in this map. Please read the post's description and the comments again.
You don't spawn near the temple or anything; you spawn in it. The gates are closed and the temple is sealed because that's the only thing they could do when the water was rising and the city was sinking. You get into the temple from a portal. So there wouldn't really be a room for a Temple Guardian. Otherwise the enemies in the temple would all be gone because he would have killed them all. Or at least most of them.


About the Coop maze: Not really good. MSC doesn't have many players these days. All the high lvl players are either off playing other games or just taking a break from the game. Lower lvl players also stop playing because they don't like the game and if they were to stay, I don't think they would match the map's lvl. Still thinking on how hard the map should be though. So anyway, we all just Solo. Putting a coop map would just make the map unplayable. I do understand that this is a coop mod, but it's not like Sven Co-op where that has an average of around 318 players playing every day. So I'm not gonna go with that.

And about the slide: Forget what I said above. This is what I'm saying about it now: There MIGHT be a slide. I'm not 100% sure if I want to make a slide. But if there was going to be one, it would be the players jumping into a drainage pipe and landing in the waste/sewer part of the map (if there will actually be a sewer part).


Wildlife: Not all the temple's water will be tainted. Most of the temple will have clean, purified water flowing in its walls, floors, pipes and etc. Only some places and the sewer part (again,if there will actually be a sewer part) will have tainted water.

Flooded rooms: I HAVE mentioned in my earlier comment that there will be flooded parts and how they are going to look like. Again, read the Post and it's comments.


Boss part: When you say luring the boss into traps or just activating traps, I remember WW3 which was annoying and NEEDED 2 players. Again, we go back to why I won't make this a 2-player map. I also remember Calruin2 and whenever I think about that map I remember how much I hate that map. I have learned to speedrun it but I still don't like it. So I won't be putting traps for the boss.
Also, a new trap system like the light thing wouldn't work there will be no cracks or anything leading to the outside world to let light in, because the temple is at the bottom of the sea/lake (whatever the city is under) and the sealed temple could not have any leaks to the outside world otherwise it would be flooded. Or at least the boss room (which I said that I won't be having an underwater boss fight. Maybe in another map. Possibly the Sunken Ruins of Adel if anyone decides to make that map). So, AGAIN, please read the post from top to bottom before suggesting something.
 

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Re: New Map slowly being built? - Water Temple

UPDATE 2


Since I still haven't designed a good overview of the map and the pathways, I'm mostly working on some random rooms which will be used to put together the map. Although some of them may be used, some might have changes made to them and some might just have bits of them recycled in other parts. But what is certain is that all of the usable parts will have changes made to them. These changes can include adding details, replacing/adding textures, resizing and etc.

(Requires a small touch) This is what I will call a "connecter". A hall/room or something that connects two rooms/parts of the map together. I'm uploading this to show that while parts like these might just be a place where the player passes through quick without having to fight in or anything, they will still be worked on and detailed to be good looking and not just a simple pair of brushes.
http://s6.uplod.ir/i/00881/uhu3irjr5zk6.png

(Unfinished) A Teleporter room which has the ability to open a portal. Not quite sure if this will be in the middle, end or even start of the map where players spawn. But I DO know that I need to use more textures in it (while the used textures are different they are all kind of the same and similar) and I will make more water works in it. Because frankly, its current state makes me feel like it belongs more in the Lodagond series than here. Mostly because of the used textures.
http://s6.uplod.ir/i/00881/d8391vzy4uaq.png

(Not even close to being finished) This room (while really simple and still with not much details) I believe can be used as a boss room. But I'm not sure about using it since I want the boss fight to be in the lower cold levels where there's ice. Because from what it looks like with all the water, humidity and plants, it feels more like the room's temperature is warm and it feels like a temple placed in a tropical land, which doesn't fit in. Not only with the cold levels but also not with the whole temple itself. So this one will be re-textured and used in the final boss part or just used as another boss room. Meaning that similar to some maps like shender_east, this map will also have more than one boss. Still, I haven't decided on which path I will choose:
http://s6.uplod.ir/i/00881/8v0v7wph0ppx.png

Note: I am having trouble trying to fit this temple into the elven world because there are no elven statues in the msc files. The only statues are a human priest's, a Khaz dragon and a mummified elf.
In most parts of the map I've used the priest's statue (by_statue_snow.mdl) which really makes it better, but the problem is that it's a human's statue and not an elf's. And it's not really as easy as saying "Well it bill be the statue of an elven priest" because the statue has lumberjack beard which I've never see any elf in any game or movie have one. So I think I have to make an exception and use it anyway.


I'd like to apologize if you feel like the map is being built too slow. I'm currently close to my final term exams and I have little time to work or even play.
Once again, I will be happy to hear your suggestions and feedback.
Also, if you have any concepts or drawings of a room or part of the map which you think could be interesting, you can PM me in the Forums.

PS: Thank you Lucifer Majiskus, that made my day :D
 
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Thothie

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Re: New Map slowly being built? - Water Temple

Chimz said:
This is what I will call a "connecter". A hall/room or something that connects two rooms/parts of the map together.
To keep the wpoly down, particularly if you are planning to copy-paste the connector, make sure it provides vis blocking of some sort.

vis_blocking_101.jpg
hipoly.jpg


Chimz said:
Note: I am having trouble trying to fit this temple into the elven world because there are no elven statues in the msc files.
Do have some statues and potential statues that may help with that - maybe textures too, if you want worn paintings and carvings of elves and the like.

Apera_stoned.png

We also have new, well, actual elves... Some of which have an elemental motif going, if you want elven constructs - though the animations are fairly biological, so maybe more like demons than constructs. I suppose creating a translucent chrome water elf from the new models wouldn't be hard either.
 

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Re: New Map slowly being built? - Water Temple

REPLY TO THOTHIE:


1. Ok I'm not completely sure what poly is (except for the girl xD ) but I do sort of have a grasp of what it is. Anyway the hallway thingy you've put will be really useful and good. Thank you! It's better to learn it now than the hard way and screw something up.


2. Yes, I would like those statues, textures and models. Anything close to elves will be very helpful to me. So please share them with me somehow?


Also I have a question: How come I am missing some sprites that other maps use, but even so, they are shown in game and the game does not crash? Like the water dripping effect in edana's underground pool or glow sprite. I'm asking because I need those sprites myself.

PS: Goddamn that statue looks good! :oldshock:



NOTE TO ALL:

I've gotten complaints from two players that they don't like the symbol, because it looks like a Swastika. I'll admit I didn't put much work into it when I first made it, but when I did, I DID notice that it looks like it.
Reason I kept it? Because this is not a "Nazi Symbol". A Swastika does not represent racism or anything. This symbol isn't something the Third Reich created. It goes way back into 3000 BCE. It's been used in many different parts of the world, including Indian subcontinent, East Asia and Southeast Asia. Hell, it was even used in Persia! In the Zoroastrian religion. Which there, it represented the revolving sun.
So just saying that this symbol is bad because the Nazis used it isn't really fair. It's like saying that a name/picture/structure has been used over centuries in different places and religions is now evil! but just because 1 bad group used it once too.

Anyway, I AM going to change this symbol, NOT because most people don't like it's similarity to the Swastika, but because it doesn't represent water (specially if we are looking at it from the Zoroastrian religion's point of view).
I will make a new one that is more representative of water, but that might take a while. So for now, this will be a place holder. Something to fill the spots so that I can remember in which parts I wanted the symbol to be.



Also, I have come up with a blueprint for the first and second floor so this will kinda speed things up a bit.
 

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Re: New Map slowly being built? - Water Temple

Small Update


I've been meaning to post an Update with pictures for about a week now but I've been too lazy to.


Here's what's new:


New thing:

In the things listed below I won't explain how it all looks like and how much each part is accessible or etc because I don't want to paint you an exact picture of what it looks like because that's no different from a spoiler. The fun in getting to play a new map is exploring it yourself and seeing things you've never heard of.

1. The temple is going to have more than 1 floor but instead of each floor going up, it goes down where it's cool. Last floor will be very cold with some ice rooms. The low temperature will not just be because of the temple going underground and also being at the bottom of the sea, but also because of some other mechanisms which I will tell later.

2. Since the water temple is a religious place for the town, then it should be like one. In a lot of parts of the world religious places like temples, mosques, churches and etc are more than just a place to pray or worship. They can be places where people get married, places where the homeless go to at night to sleep or a place to give out free food to the poor on special occasions. Similar to that, I have made a church like room in the first floor where people sit, listen to the priest and pray.
The Second floor will have a cafeteria for the staff on regular days and the poor on special occasions. A big bedroom will be close to it which will be where the homeless could sleep. What will it look like and how much of it is accessible? That's classified for your own joy.


The first floor is now complete. Although some details, lights and extra features have to be added later.

Right now I'm working on the second floor.


I am going to make the basic structure and important things of each floor first before I complete all of their details and stuff. This is to keep the project going and not get me stuck for hours in 1 room.



Once again your opinion, suggestion, support and feedback is very important to me.
If you have any suggestions, please PM me in the Forums.
 
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Thothie

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Re: New Map slowly being built? - Water Temple

Chimz said:
1. Ok I'm not completely sure what poly is (except for the girl xD ) but I do sort of have a grasp of what it is. Anyway the hallway thingy you've put will be really useful and good. Thank you! It's better to learn it now than the hard way and screw something up.
Poly as in Polygons - the number of triangles the game is trying to render in any given area. Get too many, and the performance goes to hell and everything lags.

Use r_speeds 1 in console. If the wpoly is running over 800 in a combat area (or maybe ~1200 in a non-combat or vista), you probably need to rework something.

Use gl_wireframe 2 to get a visual representation as to what the game is trying to render that you can't actually see. Some overly large func_walls or waters will end up rendering everywhere, regardless of efforts to vis block them. Also see the mapping tutorial's ten commandments and ways to avoid brush-face splitting and the like (gl_wireframe 1 also helps visualizing face splitting - such as what happens when you put a cylinder down on a flat surface without making it a func_detail or leaving a gap).
brush_split_small2.gif

Chimz said:
2. Yes, I would like those statues, textures and models. Anything close to elves will be very helpful to me. So please share them with me somehow?
I shall see about assembling you a package. If you have the right tools in the meantime, you can rip some of those textures I mentioned out of the_wall2.bsp.


Chimz said:
Also I have a question: How come I am missing some sprites that other maps use, but even so, they are shown in game and the game does not crash? Like the water dripping effect in edana's underground pool or glow sprite. I'm asking because I need those sprites myself.
MSC also has access to all default Half-Life the media currently found in %steam_path%\Steam\steamapps\common\Half-Life\valve
 

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Re: New Map slowly being built? - Water Temple

Poly as in Polygons - the number of triangles the game is trying to render in any given area. Get too many, and the performance goes to hell and everything lags.

Use r_speeds 1 in console. If the wpoly is running over 800 in a combat area (or maybe ~1200 in a non-combat or vista), you probably need to rework something.

Use gl_wireframe 2 to get a visual representation as to what the game is trying to render that you can't actually see. Some overly large func_walls or waters will end up rendering everywhere, regardless of efforts to vis block them. Also see the mapping tutorial's ten commandments and ways to avoid brush-face splitting and the like (gl_wireframe 1 also helps visualizing face splitting - such as what happens when you put a cylinder down on a flat surface without making it a func_detail or leaving a gap).

Ah, that's the best explenation of Polygons I've gotten. Thanks! This will help a lot. Can't work with something when you don't even understand what it is.

I shall see about assembling you a package. If you have the right tools in the meantime, you can rip some of those textures I mentioned out of the_wall2.bsp.

Thank you. That would be really useful. Since there are no other elven maps there isn't a basic structure style for me to follow. So the best way to say elves were here is having elven paintings and statues.
I did think about using the painting the_wall2. Just wasn't sure if it's in the allinone.wad texture pack. I'll check later. Whether it's there or not, I think I can manage to use it. Been messing around with half-life files a lot.

MSC also has access to all default Half-Life the media currently found in %steam_path%\Steam\steamapps\common\Half-Life\valve

Well I checked that before but some sprites like the dripple sprite in Edana's underground water pool (can't remember the sprite's name) were used in different places, even its different frames are in the texture files, but it's not in the sprites folder or anywhere. And I actually checked twice to see if it was really a sprite or just an improvised use of textures. It was sprites.




Here's an unrelated thing I wanted to say:
The forums look really nice now! Looks a bit like wiki and the forums of other games. I'm not quite used to it, really liked the old form and shape of it, but I'm pretty sure after a while I'll like this even more than the classic form. But I think that will be quick because of how easy, accessible and beautiful everything has become
 

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UPDATE:

Alright here's a god damn update which I should have posted a long time ago or at list cut it into bits of small updates and posting them. My stupid behavior of wanting everything I do to be perfect before showing it off and being scared of it being bad really pushed this update far away. But here it is. Might not be what you all expected in this time but screw it, I'm posting it anyway. Even if it get's some very bad ratings.


Here's what I have been up to:
  • Trying to make the second floor and finishing it (WIP)
  • Trying to make a lift to connect the second floor to the third floor (complete, just need to fix the lever)
  • Coming up with ideas to expand the size and content of the floors (Thanks to Hush, I got a push forward on this)
  • Creating the entrance of the third floor

Alright that was the list, here's a full description of the situation:

ATTENTION: Most of the pictures you will see are missing some things such as light entities not having any light sources like light crystals. Or the chosen textures do not fit well, are too blank or their transparency or other features do not look good or there are just some sloppy or bad works here and there. Please remember that I myself am seeing what they look like and will later fix them. Please just try to focus on getting the idea of the place.
I basically cannot say any of the rooms to are "fully complete".


Alright first off, here's something you should all know about why I have made a few floors and whether or not it means a bigger map:
The main reason why I divided the temple into different levels with each one going deeper into the ground is to create a good division between the temple's public places and private places. For example, you don't want the praying room to be right next to the priest's bedroom. Also, if I was going to make a flooded place, I couldn't just make a lot of water be in 1 room without it's level being a little lower. Cause otherwise if I did, then by simple logic the water should have filled all the temple and its height would be lowered. Changing the gameplay from players swimming to players walking ankle deep in water. The best way to make a flooded place was to make a special floor for it.

The third floor is where all the aquariums were. The aquariums contained many types of sea creatures and plants and huge amounts of water. After the city sank, the destruction caused this level/floor to get really wrecked. To the point where the ceiling has come down and the floor has broken up and sank a little too. And as you can all tell, the aquariums have broken too. So now the floor is flooded with water and the creatures which were in the aquariums. Although due to MS:C's lack of sea life, the only creatures I'll be able to place will be sharks, demon sharks (probably just 1), crocadiles, some plants like the doom shrub and the Dragon Turtle which Petro Hush has donated (Just its model for now. I'm sure you don't need Thothie telling you that scripting it will take time). If you're asking how would a turtle or crocodile fit in, well they are fun creatures to keep in an exhibit. And also, as I have mentioned the idea before, the whole floor won't be swimming. There will be a few dry parts where the player must go to find/push keys to open the main door to the next floor. These dry parts will be a great place for turtles to make nests and lay eggs. Same goes with the crocodiles. I guess this might raise a question for you people of how would these animals survive in an abandoned sunken temple. Well let's make it simple. I will make some plants with JACK itself to resemble plants that have fruit. Which will be the food of the Dragon Turtles (they are vegetarians but they do not hesitate to attack intruders of their territory). The sharks and crocodiles eat the small fish swimming around (we do not have any fish so don't expect to see any of them) and sometimes the Dragon Turtles (if they manage to take them down).

The first floor is considered small in my opinion. The rooms do take up quite a space, but it doesn't have that much content. All it has is a big hall and a praying room. I am going to resize the pillars in the main hall to make them thinner as to open up some space for both fighting and some content. Also I should probably fix the walls too. They are just too blank. Now for the praying room: The praying room is where the people gather 1 day a week like they would in a church and almost do everything they do. The room needs a LOT of work, not only are there not enough details for a room that' supposed to be beautiful, but there is no wreckage. Except for the fact that the benches have been pushed around when anarchy started. I have to convey the fact that this place has been ruined a little when it asnk. Cause otherwise all the floors will be pristine and suddenly the third floor (water floor) will be completely ruined. Wouldn't match up.
Up until now the reason why I couldn't really expand the first floor was because of lack of ideas. I can't just make some random rooms and put them in the map. There has to be a reason for each room to be in a temple. Because otherwise, if I just make a few random rooms and connect them with halls, I will end up with a map like Dragooncaves. A map which almost has no sense to it. It's just long halls after another leading up to rooms which you don't really understand the point of. So for each room I make, I have to have a logical reason of why I'm making it.
Luckily, Hush has helped me out with this. He gave a few but very useful ideas. I will list them at the bottom of this update as a to-do list.

Now I understand that many of you are asking what the second floor looks like right now. Well I don't like spoiling, but actually right now there can be no spoiling because I'm deleting the first half of the second floor and replacing it with some better looking and more logical rooms. The second floor's first half looks like this. I didn't really have an idea in mind at the time, so I made it kinda like an office for the staff working there. But now it's going to be demolished and replaced with some fresh new fitting ideas. Although the second part of the second floor which leads to the lift will be kept. It's actually good. Specially with the stairs and water (I forgot to place the small waterfalls). And only needs some work of details and an almost complete re-texture of its walls.

Here are a few extra pictures before I finish this update:

The stairway between floor 1 and floor 2: Top angle and bottom angle
Some decorations of the lift room in the second floor: These are in the 4 corners of the lower part of the room near the wooden benches:
  • Concentrated Energy
  • Concentrated Energy 2
  • Crystal
  • Uh, this one was supposed to be a small dragon statue which I forgot to take a picture of. I'm going to change the model so don't worry about not seeing it. I just picked that dragon model as a placeholder (it's just the Khaz dragon model which you see outside of kfortress but rescaled to be small).



Alright time to end this update's notice. Talked a lot, probably even talked too much.

To keep my priorities in order and let you know what to expect in the next update, here's a list of to-do things:

  1. Make a Cleansing Ritual Room on the first floor
  2. Make a safe for the relics of priests on the second floor
  3. Work on the third floor
  4. Work on a few rooms and bring them to near completion state

Another mixture idea of me and Hush is a Frozen Crypt for the deceased high priests. Though that is located in the fourth floor which means you're not gonna hear from it any sooner than you hear about the third floor's completion.


Alright thank you for reading this. If you have any ideas, opinions or feedback, please contact me in the forums. Seriously, I could use some ideas. Just please, if you're going to put time in giving me ideas, then read all the descriptions of the map. Don't just skip everything and rush to me about ideas that you have only thought of a few seconds ago without evaluating them.



Bonus Extra: I have figured out where I want to place my signature in the map :D
 
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Thothie

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Well I checked that before but some sprites like the dripple sprite in Edana's underground water pool (can't remember the sprite's name) were used in different places, even its different frames are in the texture files, but it's not in the sprites folder or anywhere. And I actually checked twice to see if it was really a sprite or just an improvised use of textures. It was sprites.
Oh, that's an func_illusionary, textured with "+0_ripple", to be exact. I *think* that's part of allinone.wad - not sure off hand. There is a fixed sprite called rain_ripple.spr that can be used in much the same way (and auto-generates whenever you encounter water exposed to rain.)

Thank you. That would be really useful. Since there are no other elven maps there isn't a basic structure style for me to follow. So the best way to say elves were here is having elven paintings and statues.
I did think about using the painting the_wall2. Just wasn't sure if it's in the allinone.wad texture pack. I'll check later. Whether it's there or not, I think I can manage to use it. Been messing around with half-life files a lot.
Probably too late to go over elven architectural tendencies again now, but for the Felewyn elves, it's an obsession with extreme order, geometry, and magic, to the degree things look nearly futuristic. For the Eshu, it's basically classic LotR style forest elves - most of the stuff looking as if it were grown into place (and it probably was), possibly with the occasional cold-burning magical green sconce entwined in branches, and the like. The Torkalath Elves have no architecture of their own, as they've always been on the lamb, but as we've conflated them with the Drow since their inception, a similar dark purple/black webby magic theme works. They are associated with the underground ruins of Melenion, and that peeked in an age when the elves were the dominant race, and extremely militaristic, so such ruins tend to be scattered with imposing looking arcane crystalline monuments.

I assume we're all familiar with Elder Scrolls, the TL;DR version of that being:
Felewyn Elves: Ayleid
Eshu Elves: Ewoks/Dunmer
Rammata: Daedric

As for materials, my collection's kinda sad, at the moment. I'm giving ye the models/props folder from the current alpha, which includes statues of Felewyn, Torkaloth, and Urdual (though only the last is really a keeper), and a bunch of other new props you may feel fit to play with. I'm also providing a "extra_stuff.wad" which contains the ruined elven paintings and plaques from The_Wall2, as well as the textures used for Sharandar East sections where The Wall is exposed. (Though that was built in a hurry, and with some Dwarven aid to boot, so it probably isn't indicative of Elven architecture.) Also including a bunch of incidental ice textures, some magic textures, some animated textures, some stained glass, and some scroll textures to be used with func_conveyer - some of which you might find useful, but most probably not. Hopefully no duplicates from allinone.

http://www.thothie.com/msc_dev4/msc_newprops_and_elf_stuff.rar

We do have some official lore symbols I should probably assemble into a wad at least. I might be able to cook up some more stuff, but I need to get the code ball rolling again (by the gods this attack was well timed).

Here's an unrelated thing I wanted to say:
The forums look really nice now! Looks a bit like wiki and the forums of other games. I'm not quite used to it, really liked the old form and shape of it, but I'm pretty sure after a while I'll like this even more than the classic form. But I think that will be quick because of how easy, accessible and beautiful everything has become
Meh, I've been with Master Sword since before Steam was out, and we've always had a board with a theme very similar to the one we just abandoned, so... Yeah, if you think you're having trouble adjusting, I've been using that board for MS for longer than a good chunk of our players have been alive! :eek:

Meh, I'll adjust. Can't deny that this board is technically superior in every way - and hopefully less prone to attack.
 

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Oh, that's an func_illusionary, textured with "+0_ripple", to be exact. I *think* that's part of allinone.wad - not sure off hand. There is a fixed sprite called rain_ripple.spr that can be used in much the same way (and auto-generates whenever you encounter water exposed to rain.)

Oh, I think I remember seeing it as a sprite file in a decompiled version. Alright I might try to recreate that or just use a sprite.


for the Felewyn elves, it's an obsession with extreme order, geometry, and magic, to the degree things look nearly futuristic.
Alright I'm gonna go with Felewyn. It makes more sense. This structure will be hard to create cause of the "futuristic" part. Futuristic means more work and also some creations that could cause some high poly in the area. But I'll work on it.
Although meanwhile, I think their structures are supposed to be symmetrical too. Given that they are obsessed with order also means that most things should be symmetrical. So I'll remember to keep most of the stuff symmetrical and put some things in the middle of rooms (not if it takes up some very useful space).


As for materials, my collection's kinda sad, at the moment.
The texture file: It's good enough for me at the moment. The few paintings and carvings look beautiful, the ice textures are really special and good comparing to the ones in allinone.wad. And there are a few star like round textures that I think must be used in my map. Thank you!

The models: The Turbosquid is already in the msc files but thanks for noticing that I have a kitchen and giving me these.
All 3 statues look beautiful. Too bad I can only use the Felewyn female. Thanks!
I think I'll need some more elven statues. MS:C Community suggested that I could make some from brushes. I forgot how but I took a few screenshots of our chat which I should later check. He had it all figured out about how to use some funcs (I think func_detail) to not let it ruin the frame rate and stuff. Though it will a pretty hard challenge to make statues with brushes. I MIGHT give it a try.


We do have some official lore symbols I should probably assemble into a wad at least.
Please do! I need a symbol and I can't think of one. I'm also lazy so I don't go after it much. Making symbols was never something I liked.


Can't deny that this board is technically superior in every way - and hopefully less prone to attack

Looks good, feels good, it's easy to work with, I think we can all start to like and enjoy it in a very short time. I already do. Looks real classy and it's made some things very easier. The old format wouldn't let us use the colors in our chats very much. The background was bright so some colors like yellow wouldn't be readable.
 
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Hush

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Although due to MS:C's lack of sea life, the only creatures I'll be able to place will be sharks, demon sharks (probably just 1), crocadiles, some plants like the doom shrub and the Dragon Turtle...

Well, there are a few more models or monsters in the MS:C models/monsters folder, which might be useful for your water temple:

- The Leeches --> Okay, I guess nobody really likes them - they are not pretty, are original content from half-life and, if i remember correctly tend to fly from time to time

- The Orca --> Not sure if this one is game ready. It can be found at shender_east in the dream zone, but not as an actual enemy. Also it looks a little bit "out of this world" with it's horns for eyes

- Slimes --> Yeah, they might be a little boring, but most of the available colour variations are still not used in game, so maybe there is potential for a muddy-water-ice-steamy-slime-thing

For the planned ice sections of the map there are also:

- The Cold Ladies --> Not sure if these are meant to be Maldoras personal pets or if they can be used on other maps aswell

- Ice elementals, ice skeletons and fuzzy spiders --> as we all know them

Well, i was tempted to donate this to increase the number of sea creatures - was quite cheap when Turbosquid did their summersale. But in the end I somehow reconsidered it. At the moment there are enough models, which are waiting to get put into the game.


Alright I'm gonna go with Felewyn. It makes more sense. This structure will be hard to create cause of the "futuristic" part.

For a few visual impression how this might look like, Thothie linked a few images in this ancient "I will make you a Kray Eldorad map"-troll thread. Yes, I already sent this to you, but as i seems it got lost due to the forum migration:

Not that Google can't provide you with various inspirations: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
* Also Google "Allemantheia" - a little high tech for our game world (and our engine), but the overall motiff works fine.
 
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Oh right. I totally forgot about leeches! (since the only MS:C map that uses them is edanasewers and you can already guess why I don't go there) They will be an excellent addition.

Orcas? I've seen them but can't remember how they worked. I'll check it out later in a testing map to see how they work and if they are worth using. If they turn out to be useful, I will probably only place one but with high health and damage. No one puts more than one Orca in an underground aquarium.

Slimes: I have mentioned using them before as a way to stop players from healing themselves underwater (when you start choking underwater, you can easily heal yourself with Rejuvenation. Slimes attack players and disrupt the spell and cancel it). Although I don't know how hard it would be to fight slimes underwater. Only place for such a scenario (which I visited) was Rmines (by TheOysterHippopotami).

Cold Ladies? I was just talking about sea life as you know, but I'll give my opinion about this anyway: I don't know if they are supposed to just be Maldora's, but I can't use them anyway. This temple used to belong to humans and was taken over by elves but putting a human ghost there probably wouldn't be good since the humans have been gone from that place for so long. And if we'd say that their ghosts stayed, well I'm sure the elves would have done something about it.

Ice Elementals: They have been planned to be used in the fourth (last) floor.

So thanks for reminding me of the leech and orca. Gonna check them out and see how they play out in such a map.


Oh and, about that Kray Eldorad map pictures. You adressed me to that thread (and thanks for doing it again, couldn't find it since the forums layout changed). But it's still hard to get ideas from few pictures. And creating some of those will end me up with a VERY highpoly area. Gonna have to be very careful about what I pick to create. God damn you Felewyn worshipers!
 

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ATTENTION: PROJECT IS NOW ON A TEMPORARY BREAK

Yep, you read the title right. Due to various work and problems (In real life) and lack of passion, the project's going on a temporary break. Sorry, but it's one thing to think about making a room and it's another thing to sit down for hours and make it. Specially when it comes down to the damn cylinders and circle rooms such as the Cleansing Room (unfinished). You know what I hate about this room? I don't think the cylinder shape of the room has enough faces (I made it few because I wanted to easily snap it into the door and not require a lot of work) and recreating the whole thing with more faces will be a pain. And placing stuff on the walls to add details is just f**king painful cause I have to align it with the wall and i still haven't figured out if there's a special tool for that. Gonna have to sniff around the JACK program a little more. It probably should have one. Although I' not even sure what to place on the walls. And on top of that, I still haven't even tried the room out to see how much poly the area has and how the frames turn out. And don't get me started on the statues. There's not one elven priest statue in this game. I'm gonna have to listen to MS:C Community and handcraft one with brushes. My god, think of the work!

I'll start working on the map again pretty soon though. Just have to get a few things straight.

Also just to clear this out: The reason why I don't directly upload my screenshots to the Forums is to give viewers a choice to whether see what's coming up and every stage of it or not spoil it for themselves. Though I'd doubt anyone would follow this Post and not take a look at the pictures.
Another reason is for the post to take less space.
 
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