Cheatmaps?

[Cyax]

Would any map not containing any of these:

This map contains any of the following, monsters that are caged and/or can be killed cheaply; mass amounts of treasure chests, "Fields of Chests"; NPCs that are also massed and can be easily accessed with little or no effort.

Be considered not a cheatmap to you guys? I know the old developers said its a cheatmap if they didn't make it...

 

[Kuroneko]

Yes, most cheat maps tend to have those characteristics.

 

[Cyax]

Yes I know most cheatmaps have them, but I'm asking if you guys feel that those are indeed the only carcharistics that you will not allow in a custom map for it to be tolerated.

 

[Thothie]

I suppose that ms_swamp with 4 Helena chests would qualify in someone's eyes, (In my case, only enough so to ripent three of them out).



Maps flooded with msitem_spawns, and nothing else, also surely qualify.



But for me, at least, for all it counts for, it's not a cheat map unless it's inteded to be so. So I don't think ms_swamp qualifies, nor does any map that wasn't deliberately intented to be a cheat map - and it's usually pretty damned obvious what the intent is.



I don't know what J-M's justification for keeping his cheatmaps on his server... But I suppose I should send him $2.50 for taking off that cheat program at least... Do you still have yours up, or do I owe you a fiver too?



I really don't see the need to distribute cheat maps. People who have access to them get all their items much faster, get bored of the game much faster, and leave much faster. So all you do by distributing cheat maps in ensure you won't have anyone to play with.



Keep the players around, and let them earn their own living, damnitall.

_________________

"Holier than thou isn't just a state of mind, it's a religion."

Saint Thoth

 

[JabbahRulz]

and now we wait for ms:c and cheatmap banning =D

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

I host cheatmaps because there isn't any law that prevents me from doing so.



And I already said I don't need money for the ArtMoney removal.

http://msremake.fragism.com/gl-bin/foru ... c&start=15

 

[Thothie]

There's the law of reason that says if you want a game to thrive you don't distribute things that take away clients from it... There's the law of basic moral fortitude? I mean, there's no law against me making a "Simulated Nazi Death Camp RTS" mod, but I don't do it. If I were to do everything there isn't a law against, I would be very busy. (Although, living in California, probably less busy than elsewhere...)



I thought maybe you had some sort of justification that you could espouse.

_________________

"Of Heaven or Hell I have no power to sing,

I cannot ease the burden of your fears,

Or make quick-coming death a little thing,

Or bring again the pleasure of past years,

Nor for my words shall ye forget your tears,

Or hope again for aught that I can say,

The idle singer of an empty day." - William Morris 1864

Saint Thoth

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

Of course I have. The questions just tire me. If I want to host cheatmaps for MS, I host cheatmaps for MS. But since you are so persistent:



People who play MS get bored by the seven official (allowed) maps. So they play custom maps. There are good custom maps and bad custom maps. Good custom maps usually come in series (Cyax, Kenshin, Crow). Bad custom maps usually have one thing in common: they're made to cheat.

The point is, even though those cheatmaps serve a 'bad' purpose, they each contain a (crappy) area to explore. That's also a thing players want. Players want to see new areas because MS has very few places to go. That's just a fact.



And if you don't believe me you can try explaining my guestbook that's 99% filled with happy comments of people thanking me for hosting those maps.

 

[Cyax]

I host a site that has some cheatmaps becuase I feel that everyone should be allowed to view the effort that has been put into them... If I made a map, I would be honored ot have someone host it.

 

[Ewok]

It takes about as much effort to go to the toilet as to make a cheat map. There's no need to "honour" cheat mappers or accomodate their work.



- Ewok

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

Making cheatmaps might take little effort. It's the concept that makes it fun to play (for a relatively short amount of time). Think of easylevels2.

 

[stevenlafl]

why the hell is everyone posting here? It's not like its this complicated to answer his simple question.

 

[Thothie]

Hmmm... Well, maybe I should defer, having only seen the one cheatmap (can't recall the name). It was just a bunch of boxes connected by teleporters with various monster types and a field of chests - nothing to explore really. But maybe some of these other cheatmaps have something to look at... Hmmm...



I've an idear... Since I assume you've seen them all, and I have your 73 map pack (and, sadly, have looked maybe three of them so far) - could you send me a list of cheatmaps you feel are explore worthy?



The idea would be that I could then ripent them into REAL maps, so you could explore, and not ruin your game in the process. You could then replace the maps with the ripented versions.



Many, I assume, are just boxes though. Surely you could delete those at least.

_________________

"He who sees no evil, and hears no evil, and speaks no evil, can do no good."

Saint Thoth

 

[Anonymous]

It takes about as much effort to go to the toilet as to make a cheat map. There's no need to "honour" cheat mappers or accomodate their work.



- Ewok

Ewok, lets say you made a map that you felt was honorable, you spent decades putting all your time into it to make it to the best of your ability. And if someone was to say, "This map is crap". I do realize that cheatmaps are garbage, and they server no purpose than to make a n00b into a ub3r 1337 char... I have seen a few that have had detail before they were even meant to be cheatmaps... Sometimes the hand of a crafter is forced, sometimes the hands of the crafter are feeble, and sometimes the hands are lazy with no honor in their work.



A map that has great architecture, detail, high quality, and everything that people love... That is a map worthy of being called a honorable map.

 

[Cyax]

Ewok, time is nothing... I have seen great maps built in a day, in a week, in a year... And in many years... It is not time that guides anything, time itself does not exist... Mapping to some comes naturally, to others it is difficult... As it was difficult for me, that is why I try to help all the new mappers I can, so that they will make greater maps that i could ever imagine. :?



Time is a word crafted by man to state the movement of celistial bodies, have it not guide you... If you cling to it, it shall pass you by faster than if you did not.

 

[Crow]

Whoa, yer gettin all philisophical and stuff. Kindy creepy.



Anyway, to answer "why the hell is everyone posting here?," i think its because this has turned into yet another debate on the worth of non-official maps, instead of answering the origional question: what do the officials think should be considered a "cheat map."

Here is my opinoin on the first (i think i might have stated this somewhere else as well)

If your intent was to make a cheat map to give you power, and its pretty obvious when that is your intent, that is a cheatmap.

If your intent is to create a map to play for enjoyment for you and others, not to get items for free, that is not a cheat map

And on the second

I sort of agree with cyax, and also i agree that it probably doesnt take long to make a cheat map with the intent of getting free stuff. If a map looks good and was obviously not crafted with that intent, it most likely took some effort, which i think should be praised.

 

[Witness of God]

There's the law of reason that says if you want a game to thrive you don't distribute things that take away clients from it... There's the law of basic moral fortitude? I mean, there's no law against me making a "Simulated Nazi Death Camp RTS" mod, but I don't do it. If I were to do everything there isn't a law against, I would be very busy. (Although, living in California, probably less busy than elsewhere...)



I thought maybe you had some sort of justification that you could espouse.

_________________

"Of Heaven or Hell I have no power to sing,

I cannot ease the burden of your fears,

Or make quick-coming death a little thing,

Or bring again the pleasure of past years,

Nor for my words shall ye forget your tears,

Or hope again for aught that I can say,

The idle singer of an empty day." - William Morris 1864

Saint Thoth

Tu dat. thats what i was going to say

 

[Ewok]

Like it or not, really good maps will take time, we live in time, not outside it. Now i'm not going to debate the concept of time, but an excellent map isn't made in one day. Maybe your view of "good" maps is low. Also, don't see what I am not saying either, great amounts of time spent doesn't make a good map. Someone can spend a year on a map and it won't be that great. But nevertheless, good maps do take some time. And Guest, no ones hand is forced, it's their choice.



- Ewok

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

I also might add that hosting cheatmaps still successfully pisses people off, still after three years of being hosted. Which is funny considering that we're still discussing a game. Fiction.

 

[Thothie]

People don't like having their game ruined. That's where the fiction ends and the reality stands.



Again, if there are any cheatmaps even remotely worthy of exploring, just give me their names. I will take the time to make them into real maps.



(Although, at the moment I'm busy working on speech therapy software for stroke victims - surely, getting rid of Master Sword cheatmaps is a higher cause!)



But if it really is just out of a need to piss people off, I can't do much for you... Although I can recommend a good therapist or two, being in the field and all.



And darn, why can't we debate the nature of time? I've spent some of my greatest hours writing debates on the nature of time (or did I?) I think Cyax's 4th dimensional perception is less worrisome then the fact that he is wobbling on his probability axis as of late.

_________________

"One of the major problems encountered in time travel is not that of accidentally becoming your own father or mother... There is no problem about changing the course of history... The major problem is quite simply one of grammar, and the main work to consult in this matter is Dr. Dan Streetmentioner's 'Time Traveler's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations'. It will tell you, for instance, how to describe something that was about to happen to you in the past before you avoided it by time-jumping forward two days in order to avoid it. The event will be described differently according to whether you are talking about it from the standpoint of your own natural time, from a time in the further future, or a time in the further past and is further complicated by the possibility of conducting conversations while you are actually traveling from one time to another with the intention of becoming your own mother or father." - (Adams 101-102)

Saint Thoth

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

Oh please, don't give me the "ruin game" crap. This is not Counter-Strike. If you want to whine 24/7 go play that.



Like I said - which is a fact everybody deliberately ignores - I have a guestbook on my site filled with happy 'clients'. I even have two old textfiles with stored, old guestbook entries. Which makes me believe the majority of people is happy with custom maps.

 

[Witness of God]

Oh please, don't give me the "ruin game" crap. This is not Counter-Strike. If you want to whine 24/7 go play that.



Like I said - which is a fact everybody deliberately ignores - I have a guestbook on my site filled with happy 'clients'. I even have two old textfiles with stored, old guestbook entries. Which makes me believe the majority of people is happy with custom maps.

Dont fill us with this load of bullcrap everything Thothie said was true. Where not whining either. Cheating never helps a game. It wont and never will. People like to work to a level and not turn around and see others gettin it in a days time easily grabbing rare items. Just stop arguing about the Cheatmaps. Anyone wanting the best for this mod will not support cheatmaps. No hard feelings Jm i just dont like how you were talking to Thothie as though his reply was bullcrap when it was wholly true.



-Devin Rhode

 

[stevenlafl]

Where not whining either. Cheating never helps a game. It wont and never will. People like to work to a level and not turn around and see others gettin it in a days time easily grabbing rare items. Just stop arguing about the Cheatmaps. Anyone wanting the best for this mod will not support cheatmaps.

Whoa, um. I'm afraid I'm with witness on this one man.

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

Yeah? How about MS players mind their own friggin' character instead of going on about like this:

"OMG IT ARE H4XX0R!"

"ADMIN PLZ BAN <username> KTNX!"

"OMFG U CHEET! FUK OFF!"



The part where it gets really bad is when those cheaters start PK'ing. Fortunately, PK'ing is disabled on every normal server (read: stevenlafl's, Thothie's and mine). If you have PK'ing enabled on your server you have some serious mental issues.



This just sounds so much like jealousy. Oh, snap, <player x> has better items than I have! Let's start a riot!



:roll:



Now remember kids: If somebody else cheats you're in no way affected by it unless he starts PK'ing you.



EDIT: I might add that our one and only Kuroneko claims he has an anti-cheatmap system, so in MS: C you guys/whiners won't be bothered by cheatmaps anymore. So what's the big deal?

 

[Thothie]

The effect comes when people quit playing the game sooner, because they've already acquired everything there is to acquire. That's the main issue, not that cheatmapped players affect our game themselves, but that we're losing players.



(Never mind the fact that you CAN'T turn off the pklevel all the time due to the bugs - yet to make an AMX plugin to fix that.)



I also don't see anyone thanking you for supplying cheatmaps in your guestbook at first glance. Custom maps = good, they give players more reason to stick around. Cheatmaps = bad, as they do the exact opposite.



If you've got a pretty map with nothing but chests on it, give it to me. I'll turn it into a real map, and together we can turn a bane into a boon.



But, I feel the wall syndrome coming on, and if this is going to be akin to debating a religious belief with no room for rational thought, I'll end it here. I suspect you've just been fighting this battle for far too long to be open to change at this point.





Thanks for removing the cheat proggie at least. Just tell me where to end that $2.50.

_________________

"On the issue of peace, I'm long past innocence and fast approaching apathy. I have moved beyond discussion and understanding. Only one thing matters: Blood calls out for blood."

Saint Thoth