Fixing my maps

[J]

Alright, islesofdread1, thanatos and nashalrath need some fixes and I'm hoping to get them done. I'm making this thread as a sort of combined to-do list and discussion. Here's what I can remember now:

nashalrath:
-Iposatu could use a script for the speech, instead of the trigger system
-there's a strange sound issue that makes ambient_generics play in odd places when triggered, this can be seen for example when pressing the button on the steam machine in the caves, the button starts hissing even though the sound is only placed where the actual steam is. What's up with that? Thothie?

Anything I forgot?

 

[Gurluas]

I have sent you my modified Nashalrath, if possible work from that

Bludgeons have already been replaced there.

 

[Thothie]

I'll send you the current modded source for isleofdread1, case I forgot... I think it works fine now, but as someone pointed out, it might be wiser to work out a system for the Zombies in the multi-level chamber where you are actually forced to kill all four, rather than the same one, 24 times.

If your lights.rad alters the standard entries for lighted textures, add an info_texlights entity - otherwise it'll get fubar'd when I compile it with the standard lights.rad.

I tried to fix the Thanatos eagles from the script side - to make them obey the monster clips better, but I think it had other unwanted side effects, and the clips are still too high. I had a pregnant though for the Thanatos eagles though - maybe put them on perches, and use the "start_perched" add param, so the players will only wind up dealing with so many at a given time, and they won't be flying randomly about.

I won't be ready to help you with Nash until I'm done with Sorc Villa, which could be quite some time. 'sides - script side speech isn't going to work well for evil otto, given how far away from the players he is. Meantime, you could fix the teleporters by adding more destinations. Spawns should be working okay since JAN2010b. As for the ambient_generics - I think they just get moved to places in MSC sometimes. Getting them to work at all required some haxing.

 

[Dridmar]

I'll send you the current modded source for isleofdread1, case I forgot... I think it works fine now, but as someone pointed out, it might be wiser to work out a system for the Zombies in the multi-level chamber where you are actually forced to kill all four, rather than the same one, 24 times.

If your lights.rad alters the standard entries for lighted textures, add an info_texlights entity - otherwise it'll get fubar'd when I compile it with the standard lights.rad.

I tried to fix the Thanatos eagles from the script side - to make them obey the monster clips better, but I think it had other unwanted side effects, and the clips are still too high. I had a pregnant though for the Thanatos eagles though - maybe put them on perches, and use the "start_perched" add param, so the players will only wind up dealing with so many at a given time, and they won't be flying randomly about.

I won't be ready to help you with Nash until I'm done with Sorc Villa, which could be quite some time. 'sides - script side speech isn't going to work well for evil otto, given how far away from the players he is. Meantime, you could fix the teleporters by adding more destinations. Spawns should be working okay since JAN2010b. As for the ambient_generics - I think they just get moved to places in MSC sometimes. Getting them to work at all required some haxing.

Tested Umulak yet?

 

[Keldorn]

On the zombies-

You could keep the spawns unlimited for every zombie, and fire separate "gib" triggers for each separate zombie group, once the kill count is met.

There would be three "gib" triggers:

One for the zombie near the entrance, one for the zombies near the gate with the transition, and one for the zombies down in the pit.

Once all of 3 these triggers are fired, the path to the grim purefacti opens.

EDIT: On the elves:

Torkalath Elves
• monsters/telf_warrior_bow [35] - Torkalath Shadowarcher
- Fires spiraling elemental mists from her magical bow
• monsters/telf_warrior_esword [35] - Torkalath Blademistress
- Angry gal with a Torkalath Not-so-Short Sword
• monsters/telf_warrior_fmace_dshield [35] - Torkalath Warrior
- Torkalath elven warriorsess with a fire mace and shield
• monsters/telf_warrior_idagger [40] - Torkalath Frostmistress
- Female Torkalath elf with a Litch Tongue
• monsters/telf_warrior_laxe [40] - Torkalath Slasher
- Female Torkalath elf with a unique lightning axe
• monsters/telf_warrior_pdagger [30] - Torkalath Assassin
- Female Torkalath elf with a poisoned throwing knife
- All Torkalath warrior types are 50% resistant to all elements
• monsters/telf_wizard_xbow [30] - Torkalath Apprentice
- This male Torkalath Sorcerer in training relies on his heavy cross bow and explosive bolts

• the_wall/telf_necro - Ihotor, Torkie Necromancer of Dewm [40+]
- Current XP value assumes extensive escort
• the_wall/telf_leader1 - Azura - Industrial Strength Torkie [40+]
• the_wall/telf_leader2 - Ulectrath " " [40+]
• the_wall/telf_leader3 - Ivicta " " [40+]

Azura is a boss version of the frost mistress, Ulectrath is a boss version of a slasher, and Ivicta is a boss version of a Warrior.

(Note: The elves are stronger than the bludgeons, and harder to hit.)

 

[Thothie]

Tested Umulak yet?

Nein - not since that last version I commented on. I need to make sure I have the right version to start the MP tests with. Going to setup a non-FN server with MAR2010c and just Umulak and The_Wall 2.0 fairly soon. (He says, fully realizing he intended to do this days ago.)

[elves]

Not sure of yer point... If ya mean the cruelty of swapping Bludgeons for Depth Elves on Nash, dun worry about it. It won't happen for awhile yet (Sorcville will be up first), and the way Little-G wrote the scripts for Depth Elves, they are really just bludgeons using a different model and soundset. The current elves would not behave well in the huge-open-hallway environment of Nash anyways, lest you wanted to go with nearly all archers - and that'd be annoying as hell - as that "boot to the head and run" move they do would send them miles away.

Is going to be really weird seeing a depth elf charge you and bowl you aside, or cause a shock wave by leaping just short of you though. :/

 

[Keldorn]

Ah, didn't know there was going to be a new type of elf >_>

Wait, does this mean that weird looking elves are going to replace every instance of bludgeons?

 

[Thothie]

That's Little-G's plan, it seems.

Oh... Just on that map though. Wouldn't do away with the finest OC model we've ever had! Plus, again, elves that act like minotaurs is gonna be weird.

 

[J]

Actually, I recently found out that Little-G has already replaced all the enemy scripts in the map, which really helps me a lot. Now the scripts just need to be implemented in the game.

As for the zombie part, Keldorn's idea doesn't seem bad, I might try something like it.

 

[Gurluas]

Tested Umulak yet?

Nein - not since that last version I commented on. I need to make sure I have the right version to start the MP tests with. Going to setup a non-FN server with MAR2010c and just Umulak and The_Wall 2.0 fairly soon. (He says, fully realizing he intended to do this days ago.)

[elves]

Not sure of yer point... If ya mean the cruelty of swapping Bludgeons for Depth Elves on Nash, dun worry about it. It won't happen for awhile yet (Sorcville will be up first), and the way Little-G wrote the scripts for Depth Elves, they are really just bludgeons using a different model and soundset. The current elves would not behave well in the huge-open-hallway environment of Nash anyways, lest you wanted to go with nearly all archers - and that'd be annoying as hell - as that "boot to the head and run" move they do would send them miles away.

Is going to be really weird seeing a depth elf charge you and bowl you aside, or cause a shock wave by leaping just short of you though. :/

Guess i have to say it... Again, please pay attention:
I provided you with depth elf models scaled up so they are approximately just as large as Bludgeons, so if bludgeons behave well so will the depth elves.

Heres a depth elf compared to a standard Vortigaunt.
http://i41.tinypic.com/1enp4w.jpg

I have already replaced all bludgeon with depth elves in the map itself.

(And yes the depth elves are mutated through demonic magic and centuries underground so they have grown bigger.)

I will send you a pm with the instructions for the scripts, treasure it.

 

[Thothie]

I realize they be giant elves (which seems to me, the exact opposite adaptation you'd get if elves went subterranean), but it's still going to look absolutely silly. Wide, burly, large, low-riding creatures are the only thing these sort of moves make any sense on. Giant dwarves might work - but not giant elves (not that giant dwarves wouldn't be equally silly for other reasons).

But if you wanna butcher yer map be my guest - it'll just be a long while before I get to putting the knife to it.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Guess i have to say it... Again, please pay attention:
I provided you with depth elf models scaled up so they are approximately just as large as Bludgeons, so if bludgeons behave well so will the depth elves.

Heres a depth elf compared to a standard Vortigaunt.
http://i41.tinypic.com/1enp4w.jpg

I have already replaced all bludgeon with depth elves in the map itself.

(And yes the depth elves are mutated through demonic magic and centuries underground so they have grown bigger.)

Were the depth elves created the way they were because they needed to fit the bludgeon AI and attack patterns? If so, that does not seem like a very effective way to work around a limitation.

I don't understand why the map has to change at all. The only flaw in Nashalrath right now is in the gameplay, and that is because a map full of bludgeons is rather mindless and repetitive. Why do you intend to keep the gameplay in the map the exact same, plus introduce a bizarre element (the depth elves) that makes no sense, both in terms of story and gameplay?

As a player, someone who your map is aimed towards, I must ask if it would be too much to either rework your scrips or rework your lore so we don't have to deal with depth elves. I am not trying to be rude, but I am trying to provide you with honest feedback. Your proposed changes for Nashalrath do not appeal to me as a player.

Also, please don't tell me time is a factor. Delayed releases usually equate to a higher quality product so I doubt any of us mind if it takes more time to make things perfect.

 

[Gurluas]

Guess i have to say it... Again, please pay attention:
I provided you with depth elf models scaled up so they are approximately just as large as Bludgeons, so if bludgeons behave well so will the depth elves.

Heres a depth elf compared to a standard Vortigaunt.
http://i41.tinypic.com/1enp4w.jpg

I have already replaced all bludgeon with depth elves in the map itself.

(And yes the depth elves are mutated through demonic magic and centuries underground so they have grown bigger.)

Were the depth elves created the way they were because they needed to fit the bludgeon AI and attack patterns? If so, that does not seem like a very effective way to work around a limitation.

I don't understand why the map has to change at all. The only flaw in Nashalrath right now is in the gameplay, and that is because a map full of bludgeons is rather mindless and repetitive. Why do you intend to keep the gameplay in the map the exact same, plus introduce a bizarre element (the depth elves) that makes no sense, both in terms of story and gameplay?

As a player, someone who your map is aimed towards, I must ask if it would be too much to either rework your scrips or rework your lore so we don't have to deal with depth elves. I am not trying to be rude, but I am trying to provide you with honest feedback. Your proposed changes for Nashalrath do not appeal to me as a player.

Also, please don't tell me time is a factor. Delayed releases usually equate to a higher quality product so I doubt any of us mind if it takes more time to make things perfect.

I liked how the map played out, and yes there will be more enemies(and the difficulty of the map will also be raised a little) so don't worry.
Depth elves work fine and fit well into the lore, they are a nice addition and they explain what a beautiful underground city is doing under sfor in the first place.
And the fact that you are going to murder them all here leaves an empty city for Mss which i have plans for.

Depth elves could maybe work different, but the thing is, i want this map fixed and released as soon as possible, and using several months to create a new script template and maybe butcher the whole map balance, for a monster which is only going to get used once...Well it is too much hassle, the map was supposed to have been released with depth elves, dialog, and more enemies in the first place, but the communication was just bad, if i had a say in this i would not even allow Nashalrath to have been released in the current state.

Not to mention the fact that i have already used alot of my time on the models, sound and even writing the whole thing, you know, this is a process which takes time for me aswell.

I carefully consider what i add to the lore.

 

[Thothie]

I carefully consider what i add to the lore.

How so?

Lanethan's core mythology has a certain symmetry to it that I do not think you are grasping. The triad of gods, the triad of holy races, the triad of Chaos, Order, and Balance, with the underlying fracturing decay of Death (manifest in the Lost) at its bottom, and the unifying power of Life (manifest in Pathos and the other departed elder gods) high above. Adding yet another race, instead of fleshing out the meaning behind this current framework accomplishes... What, exactly? Aside from bending that same framework.

I think your efforts would be better served, or rather Mastersword would be better served, by solidifying the function, meanings, and culture of the current gods and races - rather than adding Bludgeons, Dog-Cats, or giant Digger-Elves. We already have the equivalent dark elves in the Torkalath, and they serve a purpose in the existing mythos. Adding consciousness to the Lost also makes no sense, for even when empowering Lor Malgoriand, they did not speak through him, but could only exert their power and hatred through his own will. They are an ambient force of ancient hatred spread thin throughout the world that once housed their now obliterated souls. They are like an ever present mist, rather than corporeal plotting cliché villains, such as Ipotsu. It is core to the morale behind the story, that the drama of the gods is played through the mortals they left behind, of their own free will, by their own actions and decisions, rather than by an external threat not of their own making. The threats rise when mortals give into their darker desires, or take their beliefs to unyielding extremes. That is what makes Mastersword's storyline relevant and parallel to the problems of real world. That's the silver thread that runs through it, which should be polished, rather than further muddled.

Tis just my two cents in three hundred words though. MSS is yours to do with what you like, but I'd prefer to strive for the ideal behind Lanethan's story, rather than tack on another factor that further breaks the symmetry that made the story so appealing, and gave it such limitless potential, both for the individuals in the world, and for the societies so carefully juxtaposed. There's potential for a real story here, something with depth and meaning, and tacking on another superfluous external threat simply isn't the way to bring that potential to the surface.

 

[HumanSteak]

Wow, that was awesome. Lanethan's story was so epic that I always wanted to see it being made into something epic like the lord of the rings, it would really make great intriguing movies and all. And yea I couldn't agree more with Thothie here.

 

[Gurluas]

I carefully consider what i add to the lore.

How so?

Lanethan's core mythology has a certain symmetry to it that I do not think you are grasping. The triad of gods, the triad of holy races, the triad of Chaos, Order, and Balance, with the underlying fracturing decay of Death (manifest in the Lost) at its bottom, and the unifying power of Life (manifest in Pathos and the other departed elder gods) high above. Adding yet another race, instead of fleshing out the meaning behind this current framework accomplishes... What, exactly? Aside from bending that same framework.

I think your efforts would be better served, or rather Mastersword would be better served, by solidifying the function, meanings, and culture of the current gods and races - rather than adding Bludgeons, Dog-Cats, or giant Digger-Elves. We already have the equivalent dark elves in the Torkalath, and they serve a purpose in the existing mythos. Adding consciousness to the Lost also makes no sense, for even when empowering Lor Malgoriand, they did not speak through him, but could only exert their power and hatred through his own will. They are an ambient force of ancient hatred spread thin throughout the world that once housed their now obliterated souls. They are like an ever present mist, rather than corporeal plotting cliché villains, such as Ipotsu. It is core to the morale behind the story, that the drama of the gods is played through the mortals they left behind, of their own free will, by their own actions and decisions, rather than by an external threat not of their own making. The threats rise when mortals give into their darker desires, or take their beliefs to unyielding extremes. That is what makes Mastersword's storyline relevant and parallel to the problems of real world. That's the silver thread that runs through it, which should be polished, rather than further muddled.

Tis just my two cents in three hundred words though. MSS is yours to do with what you like, but I'd prefer to strive for the ideal behind Lanethan's story, rather than tack on another factor that further breaks the symmetry that made the story so appealing, and gave it such limitless potential, both for the individuals in the world, and for the societies so carefully juxtaposed. There's potential for a real story here, something with depth and meaning, and tacking on another superfluous external threat simply isn't the way to bring that potential to the surface.

Well the depth elves are not a new race, they are just an off-shoot of Torkalath elves warped by dark magics and centuries underground.

Iposatu is an avatar, not the actual body or appearance of a lost.
Dogcats have never been considered officially in the lore.
They were just my own personal project when i wanted to make my own "what if" story.

The way i see it, the lost loreldians are banished from the plane of existence Leann is in and they are trying to return to retake Leann. Until the Nashalrath portal was activated they could not even communicate with Leann, only subtly influence it, by empowering Jiro forexample.

Remember that a similar feat the lost are trying to achieve has been achieved by Pathos.
Whether you want to help the lost or stop them is up to your character.

The whole ordeal with Malgoriand is a story which takes place in Msc, however the roots for the Mss plot must manifest here.

Heres the return of Pathos:

Suddenly, everything stopped. The very air did not move, nothing moved. Time stood at a standstill, yet all present could still hear and see and feel. They were paralyzed in exactly the last position they were in, but it was not a paralyzation of themselves, but a paralyzation of everything. An earsplitting, crackling tone filled the air, and they would have covered their ears if they could move. Suddenly, in the sky, a crack formed between the light and the dark: a valley of stars, as if all barriers were removed and one could see forever through space. These stars flickered and went out, then returned again. A massive warping of space occurred, and it looked as if all the stars in the ever widening crack were being pulled toward the center. Then, a pinpoint of light appeared, and the light grew: it was a light both beautiful and ugly, a light of good and of evil. The light took the form of a giant face, and the red eyes of Torkalath and the magnificent Felewyn and the tranquil Urdual looked in awe.

The face of light had a split down the middle: the left side was evil, black, and full of hatred, while the right side was full of love and goodness. The voices of each of the Loreldians, lightning and choir and rain, rang in unison, in awe:

“Pathos.”

“Yes. I have come,” said he, in two voices: one was gentle and kind, the other fierce, demanding.

“How is this possible? You banished yourself!” cried Torkalath, whose eyes flared in a fiery rage. The Loreldians, it appeared, where the only things in the world and the sky that were not stilled in time.

“It is possible, for it must be possible,” said Pathos.

“If you can return, then so can the Lost.”

“Yes. Those Loreldians whom we banished so long ago can return, as I have proven.”