Martial Arts suggestion...

[Orochi]

A small suggestion, but could the Fire Gauntlets and Serpent Gauntlets do Fire and Poison damage respectively with normal/kick attacks? If only so that they're somewhat better in fights against elemental creatures. The fire DoT only levels fire, which is very annoying, since it's the only way to do fire damage with them. It would help against minions and greater minions too.

 

[Thothie]

They... Already do... >_>

 

[Orochi]

No they don't. Normal attacks with fgaunts/serps do not damage fire/venom greater minions.

 

[Thothie]

The impact doesn't, but the DOT does.

Which, oddly enough, is something some folks have complained is unrealistic (apparently poison/fire gauntlets come with matching envenomed/flaming boots). But at the time the scripts were made, it was unavoidable, and I've decided to just let it slide since then.

 

[Orochi]

Yes, Thothie, that is my point. Make the impacts do fire damage and poison damage, respectively. If the foot doesn't, fine, but the stupid fire and poison DoTs level Fire and Affliction, and as such are useless for leveling Martial Arts. What's the point of having elemental weapons if they are wholly ineffective?

Also, I recall adding single-handed punches to the gauntlet and fist models. While we're on the topic, how about you make it faster, according to that animation, and make left click throw a left-hand punch, and a right-click throw a right-handed punch?

 

[Thothie]

I fail to see how that's ineffective vs. the vanilla gauntlets. It's an extra 25-50 damage, depending on the target's vulnerability. (Plus the base damage is higher as well.)

The scripts are actually set to level martial arts, but for some reason they keep leveling their respective spell skills - which is no big deal, as it's still beneficial, and doesn't do so much as to break the SC leveling rate. As there are more ways to level MA than Affliction, team-whine may go off on me if I make a real effort to fix that.

 

[Orochi]

No one uses gauntlets to level Spell Casting. Ask anyone. The point is, they're supposed to be upgrades from the vanilla gauntlets. They're pathetic as-is. The damage bonus is crap compared to even some daggers. This little thing would make them that much better.

I have no idea why you have it in your head that martial arts has to suck until level 30, but please just do this. Martial Arts leveling is PAINFUL. Anything to lessen the strain would be welcomed.

 

[Thothie]

Folks use Serpent Gauntlets to train Affliction as it's much more efficient than the wand, which makes them a popular twink item, but like I said, the scripts are already set to train MA, they just dun wanna. (When the gauntlets were created, the DOT didn't provide any XP at all, so be happy you're getting any.)

Not all skill cats are created equal, MA's always been one of the more painful ones. From Evaan's comments, I'm guessing it was supposed to be more of "last resort" line with no weapon upgrades, but I've compromised by just leaving it one of the last cats to train.

 

[The Man In Black]

One thing I want to do before titles is improve MA so it's on par with the rest of the stats. Albeit, adding DOT damage on two gauntlets is not my idea of improving it. Needs something more than just throwing exp in ;-)

 

[Thothie]

As we've discussed in the past, departing from the old team's intentions, and evening out the weapon lines, means rebalancing all of the weapon lines (screwing everyone who's fallen into a comfortable weapon array in the process). My mind's boggling enough just at the prospect of attempting that with the 24 spells we have - never mind the thought of redoing all 120 weapons or what not. ><

Could make a brawler tank Title though, with some insane MA damage multiplier, HP boost, and melee weapon reduct, plus some new MA moves. That at least wouldn't break anything.

 

[FER]

olks use Serpent Gauntlets to train Affliction as it's much more efficient than the wand

except snake staff can be used way earlier than serpent gauntlets? plus they seem to deal affliction damage on impact

which makes them a popular twink item

Would also help if about 60% of individual chest didnt spawn it as common rewards

The DOT is not effective to replace a tomahawk with the gauntlets (by a long way tomas train respective magic much more than gauntlets, primary reason being that they always deal DOT on throw, no exceptions)

From Evaan's comments, I'm guessing it was supposed to be more of "last resort" line with no weapon upgrades

And wasnt Evaan the one who was constantly in favor or realistic weapons without magic? Seriously, take Evaan's idea seriously when weapons have durability that pushes you to use MA when everything else is broken.

Could make a brawler tank Title though, with some insane MA damage multiplier, HP boost, and melee weapon reduct, plus some new MA moves. That at least wouldn't break anything.

Balance is not about not making something not broken but making everything equal

 

[The Man In Black]

I don't mean fully revamping the whole thing, just some fixing up here and there. For instance, I've always wanted MA to do randomized damage like everything else. I still don't know why it wasn't done like that to begin with.. As far as adding more weapons, I don't really want to. I have a different approach that's easier in some ways, but more difficult in others: Higher levels == more advanced/powerful combos. Doesn't require new models, depending on how you implement it might not require finding a map to distribute (a master could teach it, players could be expected to figure them out/discuss, or you could have scrolls/books distributed in maps to teach them how to use), and doesn't require a whole lot of new scripting.

Meh. Pipe dream.

 

[FER]

Meh. Pipe dream.

what makes it a pipe dream if it doesnt need much sripting as you said? if its cus of the animations leave it to em

 

[Orochi]

Why can't you just make the regular punches do fire damage? I don't understand.

 

[Thothie]

Going back to MS 1.3, it's always been balanced out in such a way that some skills took more effort to learn than others, so while you could get some basic skills up fairly quickly, to reach maximum potential, you had to go back and round up on the weaker skills. Obvious downside being that doing it the other way around lead to huge amounts of pain. But boosting those secondary skills to match the primary ones, breaks the entire leveling system, so you can't do that without going back and bringing all the other skills down a notch so that they are all on par, and meet somewhere in the middle. This would most likely wreck everyone's current weapon array, and cause mass havoc.

I do intend to do that for the magic system (get all schools on par), but to do it to the weapon system too, is far more work than I could even conceive of right now, considering I've been putting the daunting task of rebuilding the magic system off for, what, more than four years now? It'll probably result in the SC leveling a lot faster, and make SC weaker in some ways and stronger in others, but as SC has almost no affect on stats, especially when compared to weapon skills, it'll have a much less fundamental impact on the overall leveling rate.

(I also like that MA is stable, damage wise. It gave you one nice predictable DPS - but I don't much like randomness in my RPG systems. Everything would likely be stable, and there would be no miss chance either, if I had it my way, but I tried to keep to the original theme on that too - even down to which weapon types tend to be more and less random. Hell, we wouldn't even have any of this skill learning crap if I had it my way - you'd just get a pool of stat and skill points to put wherever the **** you wanted.)

Why can't you just make the regular punches do fire damage? I don't understand.

On the fire gauntlets? They... Do... Both the DOT and the regular damage. It's only the kick that does blunt damage on impact + fire DOT. That's why fire elementals laugh at you when you try to hit them with fire gauntlets.

 

[FER]

On the fire gauntlets? They... Do... Both the DOT and the regular damage. It's only the kick that does blunt damage on impact + fire DOT. That's why fire elementals laugh at you when you try to hit them with fire gauntlets.

No they dont, only fire DOT on fire gaunts. Im pretty sure because last time I tried to train MA on zombies (which happened to be weak to fire), fire gauntlets didnt deal any "super effective" kind of damage

 

[Thothie]

const MELEE_DMG_TYPE fire

I have no explanation for this then.

Monster parry debug says it's getting fire though, so...

(tests with new debug)



Yup, fire. Impact damage is "fire". DOT is "fire_effect". (Which is the suffix that makes the DOT effects immune to parry, while still allowing the impact to be parried.)

(Never have figured out what's with the funky damage floats though.)

 

[The Man In Black]

I disagree as far as randomness. If hit-chance wasn't random AND damage wasn't random, fights would be fully predictable, barring the monster having potions, someone being stupid, or the monster pulling a trick out of its ass. Randomness adds mystery, which makes it exciting when you max-damage a few times in a row, sad when you min-damage, devastating when the monster max-damages, and funny when the monster min-damages. If everything is set in stone, there's no emotion.

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

Randomness adds mystery, which makes it exciting when you max-damage a few times in a row, sad when you min-damage, devastating when the monster max-damages, and funny when the monster min-damages. If everything is set in stone, there's no emotion.

Which is one of the reasons why the_wall sucks ass.

 

[The Man In Black]

Haven't played. Not sure if you're insulting me or what ;-)

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

I'm not insulting you.
Almost every single monster in the_wall does a set amount of damage with every hit. So it's just a matter of calculating how often you can get hit before you die.

That's not the only problem though; there's also archery monsters with perfect aim (with of course a set amount of damage for every time they shoot you) but that's not what the thread is about.

 

[Orochi]

Why does martial arts have to be weaker? Because you decided it did? Martial arts can be very powerful; the only reason it's a "weaker" skill right now is because someone arbitrarily decided it should be. The D&D monk is certainly not that weak.

 

[Thothie]

I disagree as far as randomness. If hit-chance wasn't random AND damage wasn't random, fights would be fully predictable, barring the monster having potions, someone being stupid, or the monster pulling a trick out of its ass. Randomness adds mystery, which makes it exciting when you max-damage a few times in a row, sad when you min-damage, devastating when the monster max-damages, and funny when the monster min-damages. If everything is set in stone, there's no emotion.

Meh, maybe I just have no soul in my old age, but I prefer a predictability that allows for strategy and skill based tactics, rather than luck. I'd not have done this random parry system either, favoring instead a system that made parry a right click, blocking a blow should the parry be timed between the point where the monster's attack began and when it landed, allowing perhaps a moment of stunning, leaving the monster open to a quick counter-attack, should the parry be particularly well timed. Monsters that dodged, instead of miss-chance, would have been nice to add skill too, maybe with a lurching animation to indicate where the monster might dodge to, allowing for skilled interception. We've a few monsters with such animations, but alas, only a few, and it really wouldn't be the same game with such fundamental changes. (NVM the work it would entail.)

Granted, the last published RPG I had any hand in favored playing cards over dice, so it may just be the influences of old friends, as much as it is a lack of soul.

Almost every single monster in the_wall does a set amount of damage with every hit. So it's just a matter of calculating how often you can get hit before you die.

That's not the only problem though; there's also archery monsters with perfect aim (with of course a set amount of damage for every time they shoot you) but that's not what the thread is about.

I'd think you'd prefer it that way, to "maybe I can take six hits, or maybe I can take two.", as it allows for planning. Most of the high end monsters have very little wavering in their damage, and have hit chances around 90%, when not under the effects of shock, so the effect is the same on most high end maps. You can't quite pull the Leeroy video's survival calculations ("33.333% chance of survival, repeating, of course...") but I'd think the alternative would lead to a lot more random pain. :\

Those buggers can miss, but it isn't likely, so long as you've no partial cover. But of course the intention there was to make them hard to approach without another player to circle behind them. (Granted, they tend to send you flying so far that even that's difficult to arrange. Kinda wish the old team hadn't removed the monster's turning delays.)

Why does martial arts have to be weaker? Because you decided it did? Martial arts can be very powerful; the only reason it's a "weaker" skill right now is because someone arbitrarily decided it should be. The D&D monk is certainly not that weak.

No, not my decision. As I explained that more than once on previous page...

Going back to MS 1.3, it's always been balanced out in such a way that some skills took more effort to learn than others, so while you could get some basic skills up fairly quickly, to reach maximum potential, you had to go back and round up on the weaker skills. Obvious downside being that doing it the other way around lead to huge amounts of pain. But boosting those secondary skills to match the primary ones, breaks the entire leveling system, so you can't do that without going back and bringing all the other skills down a notch so that they are all on par, and meet somewhere in the middle. This would most likely wreck everyone's current weapon array, and cause mass havoc.

Granted, the secondaries don't necessarily have to be the skills they have traditionally been under that system, of course, it just happened that MA was one of the ones the original team gave a short straw to. Given the game has no far east theme running through it, though, probably as wise a choice as any.

 

[Marisa]

Not complaining or anything, but there's nothing with some old fashioned bareknuckle boxing, and that sort of thing.

 

[Thothie]

Hence, as I said, thinking brawler tank Title, with some insane MA damage multiplier, HP boost, and melee weapon reduct, plus some new MA moves. "I pwn j00 wid mah fists" class.

Pile driver move would just rock - although maybe not so much so in an FPS - get a face full of monster crotch.