What I think...
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Gurluas
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Orochi said:
Alien-Swarm SDK..
It Includes the 2010 codebase(A few months before the Portal 2 demo at E3 according tot he devs).
It is a modified L4d2 engine, it includes dynamic shadows, ai director, and alot of minor engine tweaks and features hence why I am suggesting upgrading to the Alien Swarm sdk as the Source Engine is still the Source Engine so the game can function the same way using the current Hl2 code..But it will also have the potential for the 2010 source improvements.
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That's still nothing a half-assed coder couldn't work out, and nothing we couldn't do even in MSC (even without nav nodes). And the specials aren't using that system in L4D1 at least. They always spawn in the same darn places, sometimes offset by a time delay between the last one that spawned, or a flip of the coin as to which special. But Smokers spawn so predictably, for instance, I've often found myself shooting back over my shoulder when entering the subway station escalators, and bagging one every time.Tentadrilus said:
Director silliness aside, however, it'd be nice to have the latest SDK available, I just dunno if the Alien Swarm SDK includes all the SDK functions required, or just those for AS. It might turn into a mix and match between that and the 2007 SDK to get everything ya need, and the results might be buggy as hell. Midas well download it and take a look, I say.
It wouldn't be bad to have some areas of dungeons randomly generate themselves, if their block-map system can pull that - but I'm guessing it only can do so in two dimensions. I've yet to see a good 3D random dungeon generator (although I used to think Oblivion was doing that, until it turned out they just recycled way too many prefab rooms.)
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As far as I know every dungeon and cave in Oblivion was hand-made, but the mappers used a large set of prefab rooms/corridors. That's why just about every dungeon/cave looked similar (hey guys I've seen this large room before) and that's why Morrowind is much, much better.
As for the L4D AI director gimmick. I played L4D at a LAN party once (I have a LAN party once per year) for hours and hours straight and at one point I knew where to look for pills / health packs. And that LAN party was the only occasion when I ever played L4D. It's really just "Spawn pills here y/n (flip coin)" like Thothie describes it which should be obvious seeing as how I sort of figured out where to look after just a few hours of playing that game.
I'm not sure about the 'special' zombies but they might have pre-defined spawn locations as well.
As for L4D2: I don't give a fuck, where the hell is Episode Three!?!?!?!?
As for the L4D AI director gimmick. I played L4D at a LAN party once (I have a LAN party once per year) for hours and hours straight and at one point I knew where to look for pills / health packs. And that LAN party was the only occasion when I ever played L4D. It's really just "Spawn pills here y/n (flip coin)" like Thothie describes it which should be obvious seeing as how I sort of figured out where to look after just a few hours of playing that game.
I'm not sure about the 'special' zombies but they might have pre-defined spawn locations as well.
As for L4D2: I don't give a fuck, where the hell is Episode Three!?!?!?!?
Gurluas
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They do not, however the director adapts to your playstyle.
Thus things gets predictable easily but if you dont believe me go check a l4d vmf yourself, there are no entities for special infected. And Items do not used the director for spawning so count those out.
Thus things gets predictable easily but if you dont believe me go check a l4d vmf yourself, there are no entities for special infected. And Items do not used the director for spawning so count those out.
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If there's no map entities, the Director definitely has predefined spawn points written into it. It does require that no player be looking at the spawn point at the time (unless yer lagging to hell), and that the special in question hasn't spawned for X seconds (although you can adjust said frequency with cvars), but without a doubt, I can call out Smoker and Hunter spawns in at least a dozen consistent locations in every campaign, without fail. One or two of those locations seem to flip for Boomers, but it's very consistent in L4D1, at least - and I play on pubs, where chaos reigns supreme. They're every bit as consistent as the tank/witch flip coin, if not more so. I don't think it even pays attention to the player's status - although the medkit spawn rates seem to be affected by the number of medkits folks have on hand. (Must resist... All this L4D talk is making me want to go out and play instead of work on the patch...)
And yeah, the Oblivion prefab abuse was so gosh darn awful they midas well have made a system to randomize the maps - likely would have been better (I'm convinced the Ayleid civilization fell when they all went insane from architectural monotony). Morrowind uses a series of prefab models for its rooms too, but they seem to put more effort into it there, and it seems to have a wider variety of chambers, even if they aren't nearly as pretty.
It'd be nice to have a map brush that randomly generates a maze based on a series of prefabs though - with a marked entrance and exit. Would add some variety to what's always going to be a limited number of maps.
And yeah, the Oblivion prefab abuse was so gosh darn awful they midas well have made a system to randomize the maps - likely would have been better (I'm convinced the Ayleid civilization fell when they all went insane from architectural monotony). Morrowind uses a series of prefab models for its rooms too, but they seem to put more effort into it there, and it seems to have a wider variety of chambers, even if they aren't nearly as pretty.
It'd be nice to have a map brush that randomly generates a maze based on a series of prefabs though - with a marked entrance and exit. Would add some variety to what's always going to be a limited number of maps.
A Director-style system would be an interesting addition to MS:S Mission (AKA Gauntlet or Instance) maps. The current plan is to have two styles of maps; Adventure maps and Mission maps. Adventure maps are just that; fields that the player may explore, much like Thornlands, Sfor and the like. Thanks to the global state system built into Source, maps may transition key settings from one transition to the next. Mission maps would be very similar to the current gauntlet maps, with some noticeable differences.
When a server is on or enters a map that is Mission-mode flagged, the server will switch into Mission Mode for the duration of the level series, or until failure conditions are met. You will see a change in the HUD. Players will have a set amount of lives on Mission maps. This will allow us to bring the enemies down to less of the "H4X" levels you see in many of MS:C's enemies. But, there will be a real consequence for failure; not meeting the objective conditions or reaching time or life limits means failing the mission and getting booted back to the entrance map, where you are free to try again. To prevent players from simply rejoining or calling in copious amounts of friends to tip the odds, and to keep stupid loot ninjas out, Mission maps will be designed with a "waiting area" for people who join after the map has begun. Depending on the map, the players currently registered for the mission may allow them in via a vote, or they may be locked out during critical events, like a boss fight. This trade-off means enemies need not have one-hit KO abilities or do overwhelming amounts of damage to level the playing field. A Director-style system would certainly be an improvement. I'm confident we can design such a system in-house. For certain it would mean much more dynamic Gauntlet maps.
Whew, that's a mouthful. Basically, expect a much more rigorous system for Gauntlet maps, and a hopefully more immersive form of Adventure maps.
When a server is on or enters a map that is Mission-mode flagged, the server will switch into Mission Mode for the duration of the level series, or until failure conditions are met. You will see a change in the HUD. Players will have a set amount of lives on Mission maps. This will allow us to bring the enemies down to less of the "H4X" levels you see in many of MS:C's enemies. But, there will be a real consequence for failure; not meeting the objective conditions or reaching time or life limits means failing the mission and getting booted back to the entrance map, where you are free to try again. To prevent players from simply rejoining or calling in copious amounts of friends to tip the odds, and to keep stupid loot ninjas out, Mission maps will be designed with a "waiting area" for people who join after the map has begun. Depending on the map, the players currently registered for the mission may allow them in via a vote, or they may be locked out during critical events, like a boss fight. This trade-off means enemies need not have one-hit KO abilities or do overwhelming amounts of damage to level the playing field. A Director-style system would certainly be an improvement. I'm confident we can design such a system in-house. For certain it would mean much more dynamic Gauntlet maps.
Whew, that's a mouthful. Basically, expect a much more rigorous system for Gauntlet maps, and a hopefully more immersive form of Adventure maps.
Gurluas
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Orochi said:
You should still consider looking at the AS Sdk for the source engine improvements.
As for the missions style maps that sounds surprisingly interesting.. Can the waiting room have spectator cameras though? maybe placed strategically in the map so that people in the waiting room can watch the battles
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It'd be rather nice if there could be some sort of mini game(s) available to the players in the waiting room. If there is absolutely nothing to do except wait building a waiting room seems like a waste of the mappers time. Why not just force players into spectator mode or just boot them from the server all together?
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Well, ya don't have to worry about ninja's if your treasure chests are all individualized from the get-go. Primary issue with late joiners now, is the likelihood of crash skyrocketing.
Ya really don't want to get into a situation where it's harder for your players to work together, rather than easier. I'd concentrate more on coming up with ideas to allow players to play together more often, rather than less. Working out something for dealing with the level power divide, for instance...
Ya really don't want to get into a situation where it's harder for your players to work together, rather than easier. I'd concentrate more on coming up with ideas to allow players to play together more often, rather than less. Working out something for dealing with the level power divide, for instance...
*CRAZY IDEA INCOMING*
Perhaps, to make maps last a little longer, damage could be adjusted based on a player's levels and health to either make the map slightly easier or more difficult.
As in a player with, say, 600 HP who is playing skycastle will get something like a 15% damage decrease, as that map is much too easy for him now. And vice versa, a player with 300 HP on that same skycastle run would get a 15% damage increase, to allow him to help out more.
Of course XP values could be adjusted accordingly so this isn't abused.
Perhaps, to make maps last a little longer, damage could be adjusted based on a player's levels and health to either make the map slightly easier or more difficult.
As in a player with, say, 600 HP who is playing skycastle will get something like a 15% damage decrease, as that map is much too easy for him now. And vice versa, a player with 300 HP on that same skycastle run would get a 15% damage increase, to allow him to help out more.
Of course XP values could be adjusted accordingly so this isn't abused.
Either way, its good to see people still actively comming up with ideas for MS:S
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