Anyone there?

Lucifer Majiskus

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I've been working on a map the past month or so, but as time goes on I've drastically lost interest... Is anyone even there? Is it even worth my time? I'm not so sure anymore what the outcome is going to be for this game in the near future..
 

Caluminium

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Have you got any screenshots of your map so far?
 

Lucifer Majiskus

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I'm trying to wait until I have a few more rooms and more to show off... but I guess I can give a few teasers.. I've only really made one area so far. About 1/5th done with the brush work for the map, give or take. When I'm closer to done I'll make a thread in the mapping subsection. My major gripe with my map is the ground is flat, but I've already been hitting high clipnodes.. so I might just make the ground func illusionary like dirt you wade through, in some spots... Or grass, etc.... This is nearly 1 month of mapping experience total, now.

Disclaimer: Dridje made the green room and the plants, to show me how to map. I decorated it and hid it somewhere in the map...

 

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zeus9860

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If you are concerned with your time/investment being wasted in the end. You might have better odds pulling something off that will not be wasted for MS:R. As it is, ms:c is suffering from lack of population on top of all the other problems and limitations, even if your map is added to the game, it will be played by a small amount of people. So, with this in mind, it is easy to assume that whatever you create will most certainly end up being ignored by the majority, unless... the game became popular again. And we already know that isn't going to happen either unless... we get a miracle of some sort. Which is why, MS:R is the way to go. Believe you me, i used to hate the idea of redoing MS in another engine, even when it was on source. Most of the charm of this game, to me, is the gameplay, it will be hard to accept whatever comes next knowing how addicted i am to the current engine, but gotta admit that sometimes it is best to just go along with whatever has the "best chance" of survival in the long run, in which case, ms:c certainly isn't #1.

Just my two cents on the problem. Do keep in mind though, the answer lies within you, not on others.
 

Lucifer Majiskus

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That was a pretty wise post, and I agree with you in that the charm in MS:C is mostly in the engine and nostalgia factor. Still, something about creating things for the engine is extremely satisfying.
 

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Is anyone even there? Is it even worth my time?
If you're making a map that contains any of the following, you should probably proceed:
  • a consistent theme, both in terms of visuals and monster layout
  • interactivity, such as puzzles (preferably more than just button pressing though)
  • free-roaming
  • alternative routes to the main objective
  • secrets

If you're making a map that contains any of the following, you should probably stop right away:
  • 'rainbow' monster layout
  • monster ramping (the tier I, II, ... VI system)
  • infinitely respawning monsters
  • completely linear dungeon crawling
  • early 2000s Goldsource visuals
  • weak and/or dumb NPCs you have to defend/escort
  • monsters with XP values below their base value
  • mummies, goblins, stone ogres, those obnoxious black clouds
By the way, for just one month of mapping experience, that outdoor area (with the bridge) looks pretty impressive. The snow is a bit jarring (I'm sure there are some nice rock-snow blend textures) but other than that, it looks nice.

lol @ the weed plants btw
 
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Lucifer Majiskus

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There are snow blend textures, but they are dark and don't look good with my other textures. This is the best way I could do it, and its not entirely unrealistic at least.

I have none of the things you hate and most of the things you like planned.

Edit: Here's what I used to have it look like before... with blended snow textures. They're very dark/black.. and the matching texture looks awful for the map. The method I chose was the best method I could come up with, without making my own textures.
 

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jon50559

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It looks great!

If you're worried about clipnodes, turn your outdoor areas into "hallways" with playerclip brushes. If it's inaccessible, cover it with a playerclip brush! This lets the engine know not to compile clipnodes in the unreachable spot. Also, turning stairs and weird-angled things into ramps can help (better for monsters too). Example from CS:GO :
033-csgo-clip-vs-playerclip-05.jpg

I really like your varied environments and lighting, IMO if you're having fun then keep up the good work!
 

Lucifer Majiskus

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It looks great!

If you're worried about clipnodes, turn your outdoor areas into "hallways" with playerclip brushes. If it's inaccessible, cover it with a playerclip brush! This lets the engine know not to compile clipnodes in the unreachable spot. Also, turning stairs and weird-angled things into ramps can help (better for monsters too). Example from CS:GO :
View attachment 6444

I really like your varied environments and lighting, IMO if you're having fun then keep up the good work!
Thanks! I reduced clipnodes from 50 to 40 by using that method.. I think what I'll have to do is make this a two part series, to flesh out all the ideas I want to bring to life...
 

Lucifer Majiskus

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Thanks! I reduced clipnodes from 50 to 40 by using that method.. I think what I'll have to do is make this a two part series, to flesh out all the ideas I want to bring to life...
ACTUALLY I reduced it to 22% by using -clipeconomy in J.A.C.K.... might be able to squeeze it all into this map after all...
 

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For entities the player doesn't collide with (e.g. func_illusionary), turn off SmartEdit, add a keyvalue called zhlt_noclip then set it to 1:

func_illusionary.jpg

You can also turn complex brushes into a func_detail and set them to be passable (zhlt_noclip 1), then cover it with a simple clip brush:

func_detail.jpg
 

Lucifer Majiskus

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I did! I reduced it from 50 to 25 clipnodes! I should be able to squeeze it all into this map if I plan it smart.
 

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Here be some more wads with snow textures:
Beware that some of them are over 256 (mostly the The Wall textures used in Shender_East). These will eat up alloc block faster, and can glitch in odd ways, particularly when placed over deformations.

As for the topic of clipnodes, this may all sound strangely familiar:
I told you so said:
Remember you can use "-cliptype precise" or "simple", and (more safely) "-clipeconomy" in the HLCSG line compiles, to severely reduce clipnodes. If you change cliptypes, check that you still don't get stuck on anything (narrow angled entrances where you have to duck, being most likely to betray you), but “-clipeconomy” shouldn't cause any such problems. ...and the usual trick of encasing anything solid but complex, inside simpler player-CLIP textured boxes, when possible (narrow pillars in boxes, larger ones into ones with less sides, encasing anything that is higher than the player should be able to ever reach from base to ceiling, etc. This also reduces leafnodes, if whatever is inside can be made non-solid (func_detail with no collision, or func_illusionary, as needed).

If you start nearing the alloc-block limit, scale up textures on everything you can't see x10 (including solid colors, blacks/whites, nulls, “{blue/{invisible”, and AAA's, which, on some entity types, may not be discarded). Worst case scenario, you can swap out all AAA textures for the default before export, so you only have the one allocated - just maybe undo it, after exporting to MAP, as it'll make visual map management less intuitive. Sometimes wide spread, high res grass, rock, and dirt textures can be scaled up a bit and still look okay, or even a bit more natural (1.25-3.0), which also helps quite a bit. The variety of models used in monsters eats a run-time alloc-block limit that is separate from, but relate to, the world’s alloc-block, so keep in mind, the further you are from the alloc-block limit, the wider variety of monsters you’ll be able to get away with adding, before textures start glitching, or the map will fail to load. [edit: a lot of gradient lighting and/or wide open areas, can also eat alloc-block, as it means more processed texture splits.]

As you more likely already know, to more easily pass the map between testers, “-nowadtextures -wadautodetect” on the HCLSG line will combine to stick only the used textures into the BSP, so then there's no need to match up wad materials between clients. Doesn’t actually affect any map limits though, even if it bloats the file a lot.
(I dunno if I should be depressed or impressed that both MSC:Community and Zeus survived the latest round of revelations the we offer every 16 years, without having any of their own, but at least Luci is evolving.)
 

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(I dunno if I should be depressed or impressed that both MSC:Community and Zeus survived the latest round of revelations the we offer every 16 years, without having any of their own, but at least Luci is evolving.)
No idea what this means but OK.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm back to replying to Lucifer's PMs with mapping questions.
 

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As always, we wish you luck. ;)
 

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Is it even worth my time?
Ahahahahahahahahaha...

...No.

But modding is a labour of love! Like coming back to the same abusive partner day after day, week after week, and enjoying those countless nights wondering whether you're good enough for them.

🙃
 

Lucifer Majiskus

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Ahahahahahahahahaha...

...No.

But modding is a labour of love! Like coming back to the same abusive partner day after day, week after week, and enjoying those countless nights wondering whether you're good enough for them.

🙃
More like a daughter who defies your orders and goes and gets pregnant at 16... We create these little monsters.
 

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Oh, the things the golden silence could say to that.

Sometimes our daughters never have children of flesh and bone, but still have that nature, and become terrifying artists of their unborns' hands - and the same applies to some of our barren sons, serving as Loki and Thor for every family they come across. Parents always cry for their children to forge families in the material, but the tears they shed are still of joy, when they make their families instead among the stars.

The good of the dragon forges we build for them may not always outweigh the harm, we can only hope that the forges will always make those dragons stronger, that they may be forever free to follow the unborn futures we saw in their starry eyes, to devour the world, more than they are devoured by it, or themselves.
 

Lucifer Majiskus

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Oh, the things the golden silence could say to that.

Sometimes our daughters never have children of flesh and bone, but still have that nature, and become terrifying artists of their unborns' hands - and the same applies to some of our barren sons, serving as Loki and Thor for every family they come across. Parents always cry for their children to forge families in the material, but the tears they shed are still of joy, when they make their families instead among the stars.

The good of the dragon forges we build for them may not always outweigh the harm, we can only hope that the forges will always make those dragons stronger, that they may be forever free to follow the unborn futures we saw in their starry eyes, to devour the world, more than they are devoured by it.
This is exactly why I don't want to have kids...
 

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Then you are likely on the path to be a forger or collector of roads, in your immortal works, my fellow traveller, as that was the pact my sisters and I made to each other. But, career changes are always an option, and one can always more finely hone the cart and horses one travels in and with, wherever one may find oneself, so long as you always reach out beyond your road. True, whether or not you choose to travel another, so long as you live.

Others will trace the trail you leave behind, in your maps of life, and look up to see the stars you chose to follow for themselves, judging their own paths against the many, according to their own designs.
 

Lucifer Majiskus

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I was making a funny, but in todays age I really don't know if I do want to raise a child. However, you're right. I could use a new car. Although I'd prefer that where I go, others don't follow.
 
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