Boss Regen System 2.0

[Tentadrilus]

Make him summon some Fragments of Maldora. When they hit with any of their spells, have him regenerate 1% of his health.

 

[Xeropace]

I agree with Picadilly, the DS is seen as the "omgwtf boss pwner, that everyone uses) as it is the ONLY weapon worth using on the stronger bosses. I'll do a run down of a few bosses and weapons.

Maldora: Moves around like a ADHD kid who forgot his ritalin and can easily kill you at a close range: Rules out every melee and ranged attack. Spells and elemental weapons do nothing. So hit and run is needed

Atholo: Massive knock back, stun, freeze. Rules out any close range weapon, ranged attacks are pointless as he's on your ass in seconds and his minions alwasy get in the way. So hit and run is needed

The_keep boss: Depending on who you get, can kill you at close range, can kill you at long range, knock back, stun, etc. People say not to use elemental weapons (Dunno why?) so that rules out a lot of melee and leaves things like Dark Sword, Demon Claws, Hugger etc. Range is useless as there are lots of minions to get in the way, he also gets on your ass fast too. Easy in a group as you can just surround him and use anything.


I''m gonna stop here to say something I just picked up on... Bring back the old HP system it was fine. The reason so many people die is because to make this game harder you gave all the strong bosses AoE attacks that handicap the players. Drunk effect is the worst idea ever, being frozen is the worst effect ever, being stuned is so annoying as you resist yet, yet for some reason it rolls twice and you fail the second roll, etc. All I'm saying is, people die so easily to bosses because they get stuck on the spot and then killed.

Edit: so yeah, my suggestion is: Bring back the old system, remove MOST (not all, needs a challenge somehwere) of the attacks that stop a player running or make them much shorter (a 1 second stun attack for example allows the boss to get away or even stop a few people doing a DS attack) and to compensate maybe add more 1-hit powerful moves that are easily avoidable or noticeable (Like the Fallen Armor glowing before he does his stab). This way more tactic is needed if you see the attack coming.

 

[Skillasaur]

Well, I'm looking into the "boss learns your tactics" type thing, and it seems doable. The way I've currently have it written up, the boss becomes 25% resistant to your damage each time he kills you, until he's immune.

So if you can't kill a boss he becomes harder to kill? I could see this working on low-level bosses but on maldora [who if you're unlucky can conceiveably hurt you from 800 hp to nil] it would be ridiculous to reduce players damage by a whole quarter. If this idea was put into place it would have to be customised for each boss imo.

Another problem is it will get to the stage that if too many players die people will reset map. This leads to the annoying map grind with people leaving and giving up I mentioned in my previous post. It also discourages modifying people's tactics and instead forces people to follow a set bunch of tactics which may or may not be most effective [which imo would detract from the game and teamwork, unless people were farming in guilds and were communicateing fully.]

The biggest definer of bosses being too high level to be taken on has always been the fact they regain hp if you die. This meant that if you died lots it was obvious the boss was too high level. This effect was magnified by bosses such a Rhuneghar and the harder keep bosses who had less hp [thus gained more % when you died] but had a higher parry and defence [meaning you did less damage to them per life.] If players couldn't do more than double their hp per life [and didn't have AoB] they usually give up unless they have consumables. The parry system has always been at odds with this because people with lots of parry tend to be able to take bosses above their level [especially with potion of protection or DC and DB, but then that's a valid tactic imo.]

The best way to encourage more people to play in groups is to increase healing and ice sheild qualities for groups - not nerfing how bosses respond to players or aleinateing players by making the bosses immune to them. Right now with divination level ~20 and SC 18 I heal for 17.00 hp. The average player my level has around 600hp [and it's not as if HC (SC 20 required!) is easy to get.] Not to mention the fact that if a player is moving it's hard to heal him/her anyway.

Boss arenas like the_keep, Wicardoven[fragment] and Lodagond-1 discourage healing anyway by having tiny arenas from which there is no place to hide to rejuv.

One thing I disliked about atholo is that much of the tactic to killing him involves spike damageing and then falling down a pit or dieing to minions. Niether the new boss regen system or any of the proposals so far would actually aim to fix bosses whose main ability is knockback. Any form of "Boss learning tactics" would lead to people just staying out of the arena or leaving a server if they can't get arty or no chance of good loot. In many boss arenas you need as many people as possible [even just meat sheilds] simply to block a boss in or distract so he can't knockback many people at once. Atholo's flame knockback would be a good example of tandem hit + run tactics.

I also agree with what Xeropace posted while I was writing this

 

[Jelly]

Well, I'm looking into the "boss learns your tactics" type thing, and it seems doable. The way I've currently have it written up, the boss becomes 25% resistant to your damage each time he kills you, until he's immune. So, basically, you get four chances, after that, all you can do is shoot minions, heal buddies, and maybe slow the boss with blizzard and such - but you can't damage him, and thus most likely won't get picked for the Arti-chest (coupled with the dmg points nerfs for IS/HC). It tracks by SteamID so you can't escape it by reconnecting.

This both discourages dieing to the boss, and lets n00bs know when a boss has defeated them (ie. when they, and all their buddies, can no longer damage him, they've lost.) Without creating a situation where more players are less effective than few.

The massive regen while players are away I like too, but it's tricky to arrange the way some boss rooms are setup. Maybe if the boss hasn't been damaged in awhile instead... Less tricky, although hard to balance.

This idea has my full support.

 

[subenji99]

As I mentioned in another thread, I think player based debuff's when they are killed is the way to go, and I'm glad you're looking into it. Also, I actually like the idea of the boss becoming resistant to your attack every time he kills you. People seem to have misunderstood:

You're telling me that it somehow is justified to go through loda-1, loda-2, loda-3 just to have some noob die using a sword attack and have all sword attacks rendered useless?

I'm sure Thothie meant that the boss would only become immune to said sword attack from that "n00b", not all players. I also agree though that it should be 20%, not 25%, therefore giving you 5 chances with a weapon/spell type.
I also agree with:

Regen when no players hit: 10% 30 seconds

It's about the amount of time a player needs to heal up without being attacked when not using a potion and out of mana, so it seems well-balanced.

To be honest, from all the comments from people ingame, here, and in general, i can come to one main conclusion - and a lot of people are going to hate it:
The Darksword has ruined Boss battles.
As has been pointed out by various people, bosses are incredibly tough if you do not use a Darksword, as they've obviously been balanced with it in mind. Some of my best boss battles on the game have been with a larger group of players, all a little too low level to deal with the boss, or battles vs any of the_keep bosses when no-one has an attack over 250 dmg to them. While they may be "tedious" to some players, it's supposed to be a group using every skill, potion and magic spell available to them to defeat a superior enemy. The drawn-out battles have always been more interesting fights to me, where the minions have to be dealt with too, people need to support each other, and with the latest changes, anyone regardless of level (except really low level ) can be of some use, even if it's only distacting minions, or minimal healing. The only problem with it is that not enough loot drops after such a long battle, as again it's been balanced with < 5 minute boss battles in mind. Admitted, the boss "learning your tactics" is counter-intuitive to this style of play somewhat, but I don't think it's a problem as it's designed to force you do admit defeat.

Unrelated to the Boss Regen System:

I think that's a little rediculous when I see level 20s running around with AoB, thornbow, novablade, and helms of stability.

I don't know what the devs think about this, whether they see it as a problem or not. But if it's to be stopped, I can think of 2 options:
Include a level requirement as well as a proficiency requirement to the weapons, and add level requirements to armor too.
and/or
Make rare items "Soulbound" (yes stolen from WoW ) e.g. only the player that takes the item from the Artifact Chest (as it would only really apply to items from artifact chests) can keep the item - it's destroyed if dropped. The corresponding ticket for the item would have to be soulbound too.

 

[subenji99]

Niether the new boss regen system or any of the proposals so far would actually aim to fix bosses whose main ability is knockback.

• Potion of Stability
- Now provides protection against all stun attacks, all drunk attacks, and all push attacks (save for map brushes)

The latest patch improved the Potion of Stability to give protection from drunk, poison stumbling (but not the poison), lightning stumbling, AND knockback attacks. Shouldn't that change make stocking up on and using these a viable new tactic against these bosses?

Edit: Sorry for doublepost, hadn't noticed, and was too late by the time I did.

 

[Skillasaur]

Make rare items "Soulbound" (yes stolen from WoW ) e.g. only the player that takes the item from the Artifact Chest (as it would only really apply to items from artifact chests) can keep the item - it's destroyed if dropped. The corresponding ticket for the item would have to be soulbound too.

Trade is one of the most community oreintated parts of this game so methinks that'd be a bad idea.

 

[Skillasaur]

Niether the new boss regen system or any of the proposals so far would actually aim to fix bosses whose main ability is knockback.

• Potion of Stability
- Now provides protection against all stun attacks, all drunk attacks, and all push attacks (save for map brushes)

The latest patch improved the Potion of Stability to give protection from drunk, poison stumbling (but not the poison), lightning stumbling, AND knockback attacks. Shouldn't that change make stocking up on and using these a viable new tactic against these bosses?

I've yet to see a Potion of Stability in-game personally but consumables have always been a valid tactic [but with bosses like maldora or atholo most consumables aren't worth it. Stability could change this tho.]

 

[Thothie]

Another problem is it will get to the stage that if too many players die people will reset map.

This is one of the effects I’m aiming for actually. I want the bosses to have a definitive defeat of the players at some point, so they don’t just endlessly grind on them.

The best way to encourage more people to play in groups is to increase healing and ice sheild qualities for groups - not nerfing how bosses respond to players or aleinateing players by making the bosses immune to them. Right now with divination level ~20 and SC 18 I heal for 17.00 hp. The average player my level has around 600hp [and it's not as if HC (SC 20 required!) is easy to get.] Not to mention the fact that if a player is moving it's hard to heal him/her anyway.

Healing used to be 1:1 ratio for healing players. The problem quickly appeared that any two players could take any monster several dozen levels beyond their normal ability without any effort, hence the nerfage. ...On the other hand bosses are better at dealing with that than they used to be (knocking players about and such), so I might try reducing the divider.

I think that's a little rediculous when I see level 20s running around with AoB, thornbow, novablade, and helms of stability.

Kinda OT – but since it keeps coming up – I don’t have a way, currently, of stopping players from equipping armor. I *might* be able to rig it so the resistant magic helms (stab, fire, ice, etc) have an SC requirement for their effects, and similar with AoB. The Novablade should have a req of 20, me thinks, so if the person is specialized in sword, yeah, he could use one, although the spec abilities would be beyond him.

Various b*tching about the dark sword

*sigh* Now I have moved the DS to a special damage category of “Dark Energy”, under the idea that “Dark Energy damages anything and everything” – so it can be used against creatures immune to other forms of energy. Some creatures might be resistant, but nothing would be immune to it, save those creatures that are immune to everything (ie. in god mode). Now, I think the DS is the only viable tactic for Maldora (who’d I’d like to stop talking about as this isn’t just about him) that a high level character is liable to have on hand (Gr/Go Axe is valid too, but most high enders have given up their Gr/Axe for elemental weapons.) I think it’s asking a bit much to have players plan their journeys out, “If we’re going to go hit Maldora, we should un-ticket some of our non-elemental weapons” Given the game time that consumes, short of putting a bank in Lodagond, I don’t see it happening.

On the other hand it has certainly proven that, yes, charge time is not a real handicap – at the very least, not in situations where you have cover or an escape route, but if I dump the weapon concept and just avoid such things in the future, I’d have to dump other concepts, such as Maldora’s immunity to magic, as well.


I suspect how it’s going to go, is that we’re going to be trying some combination of these effects next months. Current system is too easy. Old system is too anti-team. Balance, must find.

 

[FER]

Well, since holy only affects undead and unholy creatures, how about making DS affect only living creatures?

 

[Durak]

Sorry FER for my wall o' texts but instead of starting up these topics and getting nitpicked for the stupid parts of them I think I can show what I mean by addressing Picadilly's comments.

Three, I see ppl complaining about: "Waah, level 21's have PA's and AoB's and DS's... boo hoo..." Look, these guys didn't go solo wicard or loda-1 and get these things. Their guilds got them for them. Plain and simple. Tired of seeing low level kids running around with rares you can't get? Join a guild that makes getting rares for their players a priority. For all the crap TFL takes, I can say without apprehension that they will grind wicard until every last one of their players has a PA, even if it takes dozens of hours, and even if all of the players have PA's except one. IMO, until there's a reason to join guilds besides farming (a.k.a. guild wars and quests), farming shall remain the primary motivator.

First of all, I'm not complaining that other people have better equipment than me at a lower level. I know that they either get it from friends or from a guild. I'm cool with that. I don't care how you get your equipment (whether you farm 24/7, got lucky, someone gave it to you, got it the first time you beat the map) but I want to be able to get the equipment WITHOUT someone giving it to me. That's the first issue. The second one is that all these people with good equipment can have it at a relatively low level and make the servers less fun because of it. I gave an example about orion owning everything and just yesterday my brother (level 9) was on Thothie's low leve lserver and a level 24 guy (as he remembers) had 333 hp and was owning everything and the other seven players couldn't do anything. This is a specific example so maybe something can be done with the low level server (check for items, raise level requirements on some items) but the same applies when you get higher level if you don't have the best equipment. All of the very high level equipment is pretty comparable, besides the DS, and so that seems all right. When you see how everyone complains that the DS is too buff it shows the jump that I'm talking about but on a different level. No one considers the jump that I talk about to the GiB/nova/orion at snow or keep.

Four, Maldora is a grind plain and simple. Hit him long enough, he dies, no doubt about it. But, giving him total immunity to a certain kind of attack is insane. You're telling me that it somehow is justified to go through loda-1, loda-2, loda-3 just to have some noob die using a sword attack and have all sword attacks rendered useless? I've seen how the bandit boss in the_keep gets immunity from elemental effects from some jerk hitting him with LiB after we've repeatedly warned everyone, "don't hit him with elemental weapons". I can really see where this immunity will lead to. IMO, if the boss is there, he's meant to be killed. If you don't want to see him die, just make him invincible in the first place.

That's what I find most people like about the game in the low levels. Being able to grind down monsters. Now, Thothie has a different view as stated before. I can see why you wouldn't want people with AoB being able to kill maldora just by throwing themselves in over and over with a crystal of relocation. However, that's the fun part about the early game. Playing with your friends and trying to take down a boss. The thing that stops you from trying against really hard bosses is the gold/xp you lose because that means something in the early game. AoB destroys that and high level people also don't care about gold because it's not a part of the game for more than the first ten levels. Hell, they only care about the lost xp because they spend all day farming anyway and don't realize the irony of it.

*Thothie just posted before me so I'll acknowledge that you don't want a grind but I'd like to argue further that having a group of low level players fighting hard against a boss is more fun than having one high level person/person with good eq soloing the boss and balancing it around his high eq. You're trying to make the game multiplayer but the systems are set up as a single players game. This is contrary to promoting partying to take things down if you always have to be much stronger than the boss and you need to have good eq.*

Five, all maps have level requirement guidelines. Ever think of making these restrictions? You'd cut out a lot of the crap people complain about just by ensuring that people don't join maps that they don't belong on. I mean, by the time you reach level 40, you probably understand the concept of death penalties, know what I mean? I don't necessarily mean free-roam style maps like nightmare_thornlands and to some extent bloodrose, etc. What about if only players of a certain level could enter the emerald keyed entrance? Lower levels could still go along and fight Slithar, but would have to sit the big fight out. Fair? Not sure. Would cut out a lot of crap and whining? Absolutely.

That's a pretty good idea. The high levels wouldn't bitch at low levels for dying and low levels wouldn't be able to go to high level maps. However, you wouldn't be able to have fun adventuring with high level people. It's fun having someone to look up to, even for a bit, and to see what you can strive for. Also, it would be hard to set the map requirements so legit people don't get cut out. You also can't go and check out high level cool maps, or at least the start, which I think is a cool thing to do for new people.

I don't really have time to finish my reply (wall o' text) because I have lectures/work right after eachother. I'd like to continue the discussion but you have to give me some time to respond before you bash me too much :roll:.

 

[FER]

Only thing I can think of is adding "lives" in the game, so players know when they actually lose. (also using money to buy extra lives)

 

[Thothie]

That's what I find most people like about the game in the low levels. Being able to grind down monsters.

The Regen on Kill system does more to harm that than the proposed Tactic Learning system. It’d be more accurate to say what I want is for players to realize they are defeated sooner. I don’t want, for instance, as I’ve seen before, four level 20’s to throw themselves at the bandit boss for three hours before they realize it’s hopeless. Eight level 20’s, on the other hand, should be able to take him. They can’t, with the Regen on kill system, because they feed him too quickly.

Under the tactic learning system it’d be possible, so long as they manage to spread their deaths out among them. Penalties would only apply to the individual who screwed up, and not the whole of the group.

etc. What about if only players of a certain level could enter the emerald keyed entrance? Lower levels could still go along and fight Slithar, but would have to sit the big fight out. Fair? Not sure.

I’d rather low and high end players be able to work together. I’d like low end players to be able to act as support units in certain situations (so long as they are high enough to at least stay alive). I don’t want them to be a burden, as they are under the Regen on Kill system.

This runs counter to most MMORPG's but we have a unique situation vs. those in which we have many small servers. We don't have the luxury of huge tracks of land where we can divide each section by level or race or faction to the degree of say WoW, so it is best, whenever possible, to allow the various players to work together.

 

[villager]

Oh my god... well I tried to read all of this but there's one idea that I really loved. The one where you only have so many tries before the boss becomes invincible. Although I don't like the idea where he gets harder for every person he kills, but maybe there can be a "cap" of how many people he can kill before he becomes invincible?

For an example, After Atholo kills 4 players (Seeing how easy it is to suicide in the boss room) he "escapes" from the force field the fallen warrior created and you fail your quest in defeating him/map restarts o:

The cap can be different for each boss, and maybe for some bosses, the cap depends on how many players there are on the server.

Idk, I hope I get to see this idea in the mod though.

 

[Thothie]

Nein nein nein... The tactic learning system only applies to the player the boss kills, not to the whole party.

If Calrian kills Bob once, Bob now can only do 80% of his damage to Calrian the next time he shows up, but Sue and Ted still do full damage. If Bob dies four more times, Bob is SOL - but Sue and Ted are still good, lest they die five times as well.

Also Bob can still heal Sue and Ted and help keep the minions off them.

 

[villager]

Oh, that's even better, but what about the people who just joined the server during the boss fight? :\

 

[Sabre]

I’d rather low and high end players be able to work together. I’d like low end players to be able to act as support units in certain situations (so long as they are high enough to at least stay alive). I don’t want them to be a burden, as they are under the Regen on Kill system.

The problem with this notion is the fact that most low-end players cannot use HC, and their regen/ice shield is not powerful enough, or long lasting. I would be fine with this idea if the regen's actual power was greater, but at this point when the highest level players can only heal people for like 20HP, support is moot, and fending for yourself is the only way to fly. HC is a great spell for support, however its only the higher-ups that are able to use it, and they're busy foightin' round the world. I tend to see that people of like levels tend to work together better, shielding and HCing and such(Though this may be point-whoring, but hey, it's appreciated ). Rather counter-intuitive, no?

 

[Thothie]

Actually, one situation I could see lower level characters being VERY useful for, if you didn’t have to worry about them feeding the boss, is dealing with minions.

Oh, that's even better, but what about the people who just joined the server during the boss fight? :\

They have 100% damage like everyone else, until they get killed by the boss. It tracks by steam id, so rejoining has no affect.

 

[Sabre]

Actually, one situation I could see lower level characters being VERY useful for, if you didn’t have to worry about them feeding the boss, is dealing with minions.

Most of the bosses that need teamwork either have no minions(Runegahr), invincible minions(UberReaver), or minions that dispatch anyone into a pit of doom(Atholo). Not too sure about Maldora, but if he does have Fragments as minions(as I have heard), then I doubt the lowbies will be of much use there; their distractions most likely would not last long, in essence.

 

[Thothie]

A level 25 could keep Maldora's minions busy no problem - they aren't full-fledge fragments, atm. Keeping Atholo's minions busy is critical to defeating him (I've played that role a few times - Just gotta get em to dance around a crystal placement.) MOST of the bosses have minions, and even if they're invulnerable, they can still be distracted. (Although, tis true. the Maldora's Pet's minions do so little damage that they aren't worth bothering with, and yeah Runeghar.)

I'm not talkin' 5hp n00bs - I'm just talking high enough to survive the basic map.

 

[Durak]

II don’t want, for instance, as I’ve seen before, four level 20’s to throw themselves at the bandit boss for three hours before they realize it’s hopeless. Eight level 20’s, on the other hand, should be able to take him. They can’t, with the Regen on kill system, because they feed him too quickly.

Sounds good but it would be good to make sure the "hopeless window" larger than having five players with the best equipment or eight players with the almost best equipment. The extra players should make it easier but as you said they can just be a burden. It's not that they only heal the boss, they also die without doing anything because of the balancing for eq, which can be frustrating.

I’d rather low and high end players be able to work together. I’d like low end players to be able to act as support units in certain situations (so long as they are high enough to at least stay alive). I don’t want them to be a burden, as they are under the Regen on Kill system.

The problem with this notion is the fact that most low-end players cannot use HC, and their regen/ice shield is not powerful enough, or long lasting.

Exactly. It's tough that that's how the game works out and needs to with the current system. You failed to mention that they usually die instantly as well because of the boss' omnipotent powers but that's too bad if you're 10 levels lower than you should be. An idea that just came to me would be specialization. I know about the thread you started about the idea of high level people taking "classes" but it would be cool if every players, regardless of level, could specialize. If there were trainers either hidden or in different towns that you could train or specialize under to get a bonus to that stat. You could have trainers that increase your healing, hp/defense for tanking, attack for damage dealing, spell casting, whatever. Make it so anyone can train under them for a certain amount of gold and get a slight bonus to that stat. Of course it couldn't be a huge bonus and the idea needs to be flushed out but you could have "useless" people specialize in healing to help the group or as defense if they keep dying instantly as they get into the boss room and don't have a chance to react. Maybe not the best idea but I was thinking of a way to make classes that aren't permanent and wouldn't require tons of work.

Actually, one situation I could see lower level characters being VERY useful for, if you didn’t have to worry about them feeding the boss, is dealing with minions.

Most of the bosses that need teamwork either have no minions(Runegahr), invincible minions(UberReaver), or minions that dispatch anyone into a pit of doom(Atholo). Not too sure about Maldora, but if he does have Fragments as minions(as I have heard), then I doubt the lowbies will be of much use there; their distractions most likely would not last long, in essence.

I think the idea is good in theory. Minions are weaker than the main boss so usually people lower level than you can fight the minions at the same difference in level as you are to the main boss. Taking the polar bear skycastle boss as an example, I had three friends who were fighting the minions because they wouldn't die instantly to them and yet they were still a challenge. Sure, the damage might have been better spent on the boss but at least they wouldn't feed him and they felt like they were actually doing something. Also, they keep the minion damage off of the damage dealers.

*Thothie posted again before me and his post covers part of it*

 

[FER]

If you want to see NPCs that train your stat for some gold, then we gotta get an economy reset first, along with fixing several money exploits

 

[Thothie]

You won't ever see Money=Skillz, beyond charging for titles, on my watch.

 

[Durak]

If you want to see NPCs that train your stat for some gold, then we gotta get an economy reset first, along with fixing several money exploits

The idea was that you can only select one trainer at a time and basically everyone would have one. It just makes it so you focus on one thing instead of another and in that way you can have people healing and it doing something. Just an idea and it took me all of two seconds to think up.

 

[allentrill1000]

Ok i recently was in replicas server with 6 other ppl and we all fought and beat maldora and it took id say 15 minutes and 100 deaths...and almost everyone of us had good weapons....so i think maldoras regen is already too high....and since i finally figured out what nerf means...(to lower) go ahead nerf nerf nerf......but yeah the regen system is better than the feeding system...

Allentrill