[Archive: 2013] MS:C community's Entry

[MS:C community]

I figured I'd give this a shot as well. I've created a map and it's called "Vestibule of Wind". You can download it here (RMF is here). Alternatively, you can see a few screenshots here.

Some notes:

• All monsters are placeholders. I would like to populate the map myself but thusfar I haven't had time yet.
• Nothing from this map may be copied and pasted in any other map.
• The map must be compiled with ZHLT v3.4 VL30 to prevent two visportal errors.
• The room with the bed... I haven't found a way to fix 'that' yet.

 

[Thothie]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

Very interesting... Sectioned floating sky map sorta thing - kinda like what I had in mind for the Observatory - little extra dimensional puzzles broken up with some combat.

(Looks at little pyramid shaped monster spawns.) Hrmm... Not seen those in awhile... Psst - there's a point entity called ms_monsterspawn!

 

[MS:C community]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

Ahh right, I'll use that once I populate the map. Is the info in this thread still up to date?

 

[Echo717]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

That bridge collapse section, so awesome, I was not expecting that.

 

[Thothie]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

Ahh right, I'll use that once I populate the map. Is the info in this thread still up to date?

Together with the edits at the end of the article, yeah, that'll still work.

 

[Echo717]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

I like how I can tell what this map is supposed to be, like it has direction man, like the placeholders let you see just what's going to happen in the map even if its not really populated with monsters.

 

[Rickler]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

MSCC,

Really like the style of this map, it gives a unique atmosphere to play in.

Brushwork: Very clean, very nice, very simple. Castle pool simple and yet still amazing great job. 8/10

Lighting: Given the overcast style lighting and the lack there of for things to block that light outdoor lighting is what it is. While the castle pool area is very impressive! 9/10

Textures: Alignment of grass blends... great work reminds me of the texture work for ESP. Castle looks great too. 10/10

Layout/Looks: Uses a teleport style to get to different areas of the map, makes for good frame rates, but keeps the map a bit too bland. Perhaps some areas the player should be able to see the area where they will teleport in the distance. 7/10.

Overall I'd say 8.5/10

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

MS:C community

Score: 8/10

Brushwork - 7.5/10

Really good looking brushwork in this map. It sticks to the rule of KISS without actually looking simple. I love the round table for its simplicity and effectiveness. The only reason I'm not awarding a score of 8 or 9 is because certain compile tools are required to avoid visportal errors.

Entwork - 9/10

The entity work in this map is downright fantastic. That collapsing bridge is so cool. It's stuff like this that help save maps with linear gameplay by adding a cinematic element to the experience.

Layout - 6.5/10

Fairly linear, but the map is interesting enough that it doesn't matter too much. A map like this actually makes some degree of sense as a linear map.

Lighting - 8/10

Not much to be said here, except that the lighting is really good.

Textures - 8/10

Excellent choice of textures. It really reminds of me old school mastersword, and that is a very good thing.

Over all, I give this map an 8/10.

 

[Kuroneko]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

Unfortunately, I had problems running this map. Therefore, I will not vote on it. However, it looks very nice from the screenshots and I'd love to see more of it.

 

[zeus9860]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

Unfortunately, I had problems running this map. Therefore, I will not vote on it. However, it looks very nice from the screenshots and I'd love to see more of it.

Ugh

So no score 'cause you had issues launching the map? Could always ask the maker or even Thothie as to why it's not working for you. :?

 

[Dridmar]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

yeah, seems pretty lazy if you go through with this Kuro.

Why be a judge if you're just going to procrastinate judging the maps.

You had over 10 DAYS TO JUDGE.

 

[MS:C community]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

First and foremost: Judge Kuroneko, could you please tell me why you had problems running my map? If there is anything I can do to fix it, I gladly will.

Secondly -- and I don't mean to insult Kuroneko -- I quote whom I believe to be running this contest:

If a judge fails to perform his/her duties a substitute will be brought in to fulfill the obligation.

I hereby request a substitute to judge my map.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

I hereby request a substitute to judge my map.

I do think this entry should be judged a third time, one way or another. Ideally we could just resolve whatever issue Kuroneko is having.

 

[Dridmar]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

I hereby request a substitute to judge my map.

I do think this entry should be judged a third time, one way or another. Ideally we could just resolve whatever issue Kuroneko is having.

I second bringing a new judge in. Kuro had his chance and showed little initiative to resolve the issue so I think somebody more competent should finish up.

Next competition has to be better than this...

 

[Thothie]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

First and foremost: Judge Kuroneko, could you please tell me why you had problems running my map? If there is anything I can do to fix it, I gladly will.

Secondly -- and I don't mean to insult Kuroneko -- I quote whom I believe to be running this contest:

If a judge fails to perform his/her duties a substitute will be brought in to fulfill the obligation.

I hereby request a substitute to judge my map.

I suspect maybe he needs to update, if your map is actually using scripts - perhaps some newer ones...

...I have had a request from Red Cell to act as auxiliary judge... There's two problems with this... 1) I am extremely biased towards populated maps - ie. those maps that mean the least amount of work on my behalf, and 2) I won't actually have access to an MSC ready system until Sunday (although maybe late tonight). I've looked at all these maps in Hammer and BSPviewer, but I've yet to actually play any of them. :\ (Photo's screenshot actually being taken from the set he supplied.)

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

Keldorn may be a good alternative, although he is currently on 'snooze'.

 

[zeus9860]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

PICK ME, PICK ME! I'm online... :roll:

 

[Thothie]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

Not sure if we still need an aux judge, but now that I've hold of the main rig...

---------------------------
hl.exe - Entry Point Not Found
---------------------------
The procedure entry point _AIL_stream_sample_handle@4 could not be located
---------------------------
OK   
---------------------------
hw.dll - Load failed
---------------------------
OK   
---------------------------

Yeeeah... Give me a bit to kick Steam's ass first...

 

[Thothie]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

Adventurer's Journal, Day One

Was inadvertently teleported to the Vestibule of Wind by irate female necromancer (I'll not go into the reasons why)... This resulted in a ten foot fall to the ground in which I sprained my ankle, though this last injury may or may not have been deliberate on her part.
[[spawn too high]]

Came across an animated suit of armor wielding a bow, who, while certainly hostile, would for unknown reasons, occasionally shot arrows off to one side. [[script issue, me thinks]] Said archer was ludicrously well armored, but his arrows seemed to be made of some strange, orange, spongy, foam-like material.

[[3200hp archer, with ~15hp arrows... 16hp/4dmg multiplier... Which is odd, the system shouldn't allow that. hp/dmg multipliers are supposed to be locked to within 5pts of one another.]]

After being tickled mercilessly and carving through this wall of armor with a large pick axe, a segment of the suspended bridge, upon which I had been fighting my adversary, shattered. I can only thank the gods that I was not standing on that particular section at the time.

After falling to my death a few dozen times, in an attempt to land on a portion of fallen wall (the previously alluded to necromanceress has a sense of humor)... ...and maybe a dozen more times falling into a portion of the wall from which there was no return... and having finally resorted to combining a Potion of Speed with my sister-in-law's Raven Mace, I managed to make a successful perch there upon, without immediately sliding straight off. It was at this point I heard an archer attempting to make pot shots at me, in my precarious position, but could not locate him.

I continued to climb along the fallen columns until I came upon yet another floating island... From which there was no perceivable way to advance... Climbing back up the columns, in an attempt to reveal another direction in which to travel, turned out to be quite the challenge. Indeed, when I reached the top, I seem to encounter an invisible barrier, and only the advanced surfing skills that I'd picked up from the shores of the Isles of Dread - thanks to some cruise ship tickets I won in a raffle - managed to allow me to move on.

However, upon reaching the other end of the column, there was still no visible way to progress, so I prayed to the gods.

[Thothie opens the map source up in an attempt to figure out where to go...]

After spending much time in contemplation of the wonders of the human navel, during which time I could only assume the gods were debating the issue, their words finally came back to me, "Well f*ck if I know!... Oh, wait... There's a trigger_teleport here using the standard aaa texture, so it looked like an NPC from here... It has a master so... Do you see anything you can kill?"

"Umm... No, but I think I heard an archer earlier..."

"Wait a sec..." (There was the sound of shattering armor in the distance) "That should do it!"

And sure enough, while the words spoken by this mysterious god were indeed confusing, a shaft of light appeared back on the island, no doubt showing me the way...

"...Wow! That's a lot of beam entities!", the disembodied voice continued.

I ignored the god's cryptic words and moved into the light...

Adventurer's Journal, Day Two

Still in the vestibule... Yet another floating island... In front of an imposing looking tower... Distant sound of running water...

Jump down to the tower's base, to find yet another virtually unarmed, yet incredibly resilient archer of solid steel. Spent some time carving through him, in order to open the tower gates and to find a rather spectacular astronomical clockwork device, perhaps of Loreldian origin. While I was admiring the ingenuity, I was set upon by yet another animated body of armor. This one seemed to be possessed by a demon, glowing red, and roaring at me in a rather distressing fashion. While this opponent's arrows seemed to be of slightly sturdier material than the previous two, he was nonetheless quite easy to dispatch. Took quite a bit less time, actually.

Upon removing the nuisance, I proceeded to climb a complex spiral stair case, leading me to what appeared to be an abandoned meeting hall with a roaring fire in its center. The door on the opposite end of the hall, I soon discovered, was solidly locked. Sadly, I was all out of bobby pins.

Just as I was lamenting my lack hair maintenance, I was assaulted by yet another animated armor adversary. This one had a purple aura. I quickly fumbled through my Encyclopedia of Unfortunate Magical Effects, in attempt to discover what purple indicated, but to no avail. In any case, I tired of attempting to read fine print while being turned into a pin cushion, and found this beast to be the least well constructed of the lot thus far. A detailed autopsy of the corpse provided no further clues as to the purpose of the purple aura... However, the construct's destruction did unlock the door.

Yet more stairs brings me to a library - the sound of running water is getting louder - makes me wonder if all these books are safe, placed so close to a potentially damp area.

I wander the library for several hours, attempting to find an exit other than that through which I entered. Begin shuffling books - seem to be all tawdry romance novels... Punch light fixture in frustration... No effect... Continuous sound of running water reminds me that I've not relieved myself in quite some time.

After marking the bottom shelf of the H section as my own personal territory, and having read, "Gonan the Orc and the Lusty Barmaiden" for the third time... I came to the conclusion that maybe the door that, appeared, to be the same door I came through, was in fact, a different door, and I wasn't wandering in circles as I first suspected. After opening it, I indeed discovered that there was another stair case leading up. I felt quite foolish, thinking someone should really mark the library exit better, but at least the running water sound was no longer causing me to cross my legs.

Found source of water... A lovely pool with running water fountains and white marble pillars, capped by a fantastical candelabra. Could use a set of lusty barmaiden's, but one cannot expect to have everything one wants, when teleported to an alternate world by an irate female necromancer.

No hostile encounters here, save maybe a twinge of guilt at having found a more appropriate place to have relieved myself. I waded a bit, cleaned my armor, and proceeded to the opposite door.

I climb a stair case to find a bedroom, trimmed in glowing lavenders - not too much unlike the bedroom that preceded this adventure, really... There's a chess board, set upon a table nearly as high as my neck... A clock, that seems so be keeping accurate time with my iPad.... And a key on the dresser, which opens yet another door, leading to yet another upwards spiral of stairs...

At the top is the roof access of the tower, and yet another animated monstrosity - the very weakest one yet - and slaying him yields yet another pillar of light - which I again plunge into.

Adventurer's Journal, Day Three

This teleports me to yet another floating island, and a large monolith, upon which is carved the likeness of Dagar Bal'rune the All Knowing - my former college roommate.

After cursing myself for never having extracted the three gold and fifty silver he still owes me from his hide, I circle the island, and find a few adjacent islands that perhaps I am intended to jump over to. Rubbing my ankle, I proceed in this foolish endeavor. This process repeats a few times, before I am unable to find another island on which to continue.

I again hear the twang of a bow in the distance, and dispatch a foe who was hiding in a very precarious position... But still see no way to progress.

"*sigh* Hold on a sec...", calls out a disembodied voice.

Again, the distant sound of shattering armor reveals yet another glimmering teleporter, this one seems to have tied itself to some bits of ruins at a rather odd angle.

Adventurer's Journal, Day Four

Ah, a tropical island! Save for the fact that there is no water... Two more animated armors appear to be sunbathing here. Dispatching them both reveals yet another teleporter... Though one of them took an agonizingly long time, while simultaneously providing no threat beyond simple annoyance, not unlike the scoundrel I encountered on day one.

Adventurer's Journal, Day Five

COLD! BY THE GODS SO COLD!!!....

To send me to a tropical island, and then immediately to a floating glacier! Such cruelty! I swear to Urdual, Felewyn, Torkalath, and all that is holy, I shall never, ever comment on the size of a female necromancer's buttocks ever again!

Slaying yet another animated armor reveals a hole in the ice, which I reluctantly dive into... Finding... Nothing. Save a stone slab. I thus query the gods once again...

"Umm... That’s it dude.", says the disembodied voice.

"What? You mean I'm stuck here?"

"Yeah dude; you're done."

"FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU...."


Thus ends the journal...

======================

Jokes aside, the map concept is good, though it could use some expansion, and the monster selection (and adjustments) definitely needs some work. Might need to create animated armors with better flight models, as they seem to be falling to the bottom of the map, and then wandering into areas where they can't be reached or even be seen... And, as the journal indicates, that initial jump is just horrifically cruel. I'd almost suggest at least using a teleport return, instead of death trigger.

Oh yeah, also, teleporters need to have multiple destinations (just cluster a bunch of identical info_teleport_destination's together) - otherwise players will get stuck inside each other when crossing near the same time.

Wpoly rates are awesome, and the texture usage is similarly, awsome.

I suppose I must give a number, so I'll give it a 7/10. I'm sure, with some tweaking, change to the monster layout and expansion, it'd easily rate higher though.

 

[MS:C community]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

Hey!

Great review, fun read. All monsters are placeholders (as mentioned in the original post) and the auras some monsters have are leftovers from something older. But since you noticed such an incredible amount of things, I'll explain the map here and there.

Said archer was ludicrously well armored, but his arrows seemed to be made of some strange, orange, spongy, foam-like material.

[[3200hp archer, with ~15hp arrows... 16hp/4dmg multiplier... Which is odd, the system shouldn't allow that. hp/dmg multipliers are supposed to be locked to within 5pts of one another.]]

This enemy should be glowing light blue. This signifies 80% armor which I think is higher than the standard value.
params = demon_race;speed_x2;eighty_armor;cold_immune;glow_custom;(200,255,255)

Also, someone told me that HP and damage multipliers may not be more than four times as big as one another. So for example, 2 and 8 works as does 16 and 4 (as I used here), but 1 and 5 won't work (you even get a popup message in-game to inform you about this).

It was at this point I heard an archer attempting to make pot shots at me, in my precarious position, but could not locate him.

I forgot that animated archers (the non-elemental ones) do not fly... So that's a sad choice, even for a placeholder. My bad

"...Wow! That's a lot of beam entities!"

There's only one env_beam there...!
Same goes for all other teleporters... An env_beam rapidly strikes random locations when it is not assigned a target so this gives the illusion that there's more of them.

to find a rather spectacular astronomical clockwork device, perhaps of Loreldian origin. While I was admiring the ingenuity, I was set upon by yet another animated body of armor. This one seemed to be possessed by a demon, glowing red, and roaring at me in a rather distressing fashion.

Thanks for the kind words about my clockwork device. You also noticed correctly that a red glow signifies the monster's use of demon blood. I'm not sure if I'll use these glow things in the final version, though.

This one had a purple aura. I quickly fumbled through my Encyclopedia of Unfortunate Magical Effects, in attempt to discover what purple indicated, but to no avail.

Purple aura signifies immunity to all four main elements.
params = demon_race;lightning_immune;fire_immune;poison_immune;cold_immune;glow_custom;(210,130,255)

"Umm... That’s it dude.", says the disembodied voice.

"What? You mean I'm stuck here?"

"Yeah dude; you're done."

"FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU...."

I was considering adding an underwater chest area here but on second thoughts this is a bad idea.

And, as the journal indicates, that initial jump is just horrifically cruel.

While it is difficult, it's certainly not impossible. After having done that jump countless times myself, I no longer die when I attempt it. If you are in trouble there, it helps to jump down the rubble first and then onto the collapsed section.

Still though, great review. While Rickler's and TheOysterHippopotami's reviews are more to the point in 'breaking down' the map, yours seems to be slightly more elaborate and definitely full of useful tips on stuff I should fix.

While on the subject of reviews: There is one minor complaint I would like to file.

The only reason I'm not awarding a score of 8 or 9 is because certain compile tools are required to avoid visportal errors.

I really can't agree with this reasoning because:

• If I hadn't mentioned VHLT is required to run a visportal-free compile, noone would have even noticed, let alone known about it. In fact, I'm willing to bet noone would have even noticed it's a VHLT compile. Basically I'm getting a lower score for giving information I wasn't even required to give.
• The info I gave actually isn't completely accurate either, because the map can compile under ZHLT just fine -- without visportal errors whatsoever. It just requires the specific placement of four pyramid-shaped brushes textured in HINT/SKIP. I know this because I used this fix back when I still used ZHLT rather than VHLT. The reason I use VHLT is because it not only compiles the map perfectly fine in the first place (without me having to fiddle with HINT/SKIP brushes), but also because it's faster than ZHLT in my experience.

I'm willing to bet some of the other entries have visportal errors as well, when compiled with ZHLT. And these maps are not being rated lower because of that, ie. TheOysterHippopotami has judged my map based on harsher criteria than the other maps.

 

[Thothie]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

You can avoid visportal errors, in even classic ZHLT, with a map like this... But visportal errors are not usually a big deal. (Indeed, sometimes the poly and resources fixing them takes, is worse than any impact they maybe having.)

I thought you broke it up this way, perhaps, to make it easier to optimize - as connected rooms always have to be broke up with some sort of vis blocker, eg...



However, this did not look like a map made by someone who wouldn't already know that, so I kind of assumed it was just part of the theme, and to avoid having all these islands visible at once. Perhaps, also to add a bit of surprise, so you wouldn't preview where you were going.

I forgot that animated archers (the non-elemental ones) do not fly...

Tis true, only the _hard ones fly... The others just kinda "look" like they do...

I wish I could just allow mappers to add movement behaviors as desired via addparam ("set_fly" or some such), but adding more script, that isn't likely to be used, adds more load time to the mob, and thus more freeze time. Indeed, I've been trying to trim off more and more rarely used and surpufulous functions into separate #includes to cut down on this, but there's still a lot of them...

I suppose, if you used the test_scripts system, this *might* work:

#include monsters/anim_archer
#include monsters/base_flyer

But it might be a bit "offset" as the model the regular archers use isn't set right for the flight model...

If you had warriors, and wanted to be a real dick about it:

#include monsters/anim_warrior
#include monsters/base_flyer_grav

Would give you a flight model more akin to the horrors and eagles - causing the warrior to go whizzing towards opponents, in theory (might also need #include monsters/base_propelled, not sure, off hand). This type of flight model also doesn't require the model be oriented for flight.

 

[MS:C community]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

I know visportal errors can be avoided in a fairly simple map like msc_vow. Like I mentioned earlier, I managed to fix them by placing four pyramid-shaped HINT/SKIP brushes.

Three just before the first rotating door:


And one halfway on the staircase to the library:


Sadly, these are two visportal errors that can't be ignored -- a rather massive hall of mirrors effect shows up at the first location and a smaller (but clearly visible) one at the second.

Anyway, instead of having to rely on HINT/SKIP brushes, I moved to VHLT. And just because I mentioned the VHLT (semi-)requirement in my first post, my map scores lower. To be honest I find that a bit frustrating.

I compiled the maps from the other six contestants, and the amount of visportal errors that were reported are 0, 1, 1, 1, 4 and 5. I'm not going to say which map had which amount because I don't think that's very polite towards my competitors, but I just wanted to throw it out here that almost all the other maps had similar problems yet are not being rated by TheOysterHippopotami with that in mind.

As for VIS blocking... I broke up the map to avoid high r_speeds (as you guessed) but also to prevent exploits such as players laming monsters on remote islands with magic, or players skipping sections of the map by "axe jumping".
But I don't see how that's related to visportal errors

 

[Thothie]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

Hrmm... Yeah - angled stair case against angled wall, could see where that might cause that... Easier solution would likely to have been to func_wall the staircases, flight by flight.

 

[Regorty]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry

That review was awesome, Thothie! I wish I could give you a cookie, but it won't let me, I'm sorry.

 

[Thothie]

Re: [Section 1] MS:C community's Entry