Dwarves still not patched out?

[MS:C community]

This is the artifact list for Bloodshrine:

    const SOME_POTS "mana_bravery;mana_paura;mana_faura;mana_fbrand;mana_font;mana_immune_cold;mana_sb"

The fancy polearm is not on an artifact list. It's just a straight up item. So, 16/40. Are you quoting a different map's script? It has no charms either.

Yes, I am quoting a different map.
How did this conversation go again?

Me: Bloodshrine, and some other linear maps, are atrocious maps, but they get played because they have uniques.
You: Half of these maps don't even have uniques.
Me: In the case of bloodshrine you're right, because the LANCE OF AFFLICTION also spawns in UNDERCLIFFS. Then again, the spawn chance for the LANCE OF AFFLICTION in UNDERCLIFFS is 2.431% with 8 players, so that's hardly a viable farming option. Ergo, saying "bloodshrine has a unique item" isn't really far from the truth at all. <---- feel free to edit some of this out once you've carefully read it.

Eh, Tundra doesn't self adjust.

It doesn't have the set_self_adj params on any monsters but it does have plenty of monsters (even some bosses) that spawn above X HP. Also, the chests ramp along with HP.

Could be vicious and require more of the Aluhundra item... Though, at the same time, are there any other maps you would like to bait?

Yeah, I missed that. I also disagree with Oyster's suggestion here. The phoenix armor is fine in Wicard Oven. The fairly low spawn chance (2% per player, req. at least two players) compensates for the map's relatively easy difficulty.

I think my own suggestion (put the phoenix armor in at least one other map) is better. Otherwise I wouldn't have posted it.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

It functions, but it's about the least appropriate word you could use for the sentence. Go up to your wife and tell her she's pulchritudinous.

well what word would you use to communicate this concept then?

 

[Thothie]

Yes, I am quoting a different map.
How did this conversation go again?

Me: Bloodshrine, and some other maps, are atrocious maps, but they get played because they have uniques.
You: Half of them don't even have uniques.
Me: In the case of bloodshrine you're right, because the LANCE OF AFFLICTION also spawns in UNDERCLIFFS. Then again, the spawn chance for the LANCE OF AFFLICTION in UNDERCLIFFS is 2.431% with 8 players, so you might as well not consider that as a viable farm option, at all. <---- feel free to edit some of this out once you've carefully read it.

Oh my bad, I thought you were quoting the chances on Bloodshrine.

Yeah, I missed that. I also disagree with Oyster's suggestion here. The phoenix armor is fine in Wicard Oven. The fairly low spawn chance (2% per player, req. at least two players) compensates for the map's relative easy difficulty.

Well one of the complaints we often get is that having spawn chances means you have no sense of progression when you, well, don't get the item.

If the forge items have a 100% spawn chance, and you have to get X# of different ones from each place... You could bait any map, or any number of maps, you wanted in exchange for eventual Phoenix Armor. (Or, well, not any number, inventory limits - but maybe 3-5, especially with the new chest, if we make them stackable.)

I like Oyster's idea here - forge items in both Wicardoven and Aluhundra, so my question is - are there any other maps you'd like to bait?

 

[jon50559]

I've been lurking through this shit-slinging contest - want to rework idemarks_tower for instance? I would actually be interested in expanding or re-thinking ths map, seeing as a point in these arguments is to expand the mid-level maps. IIRC, the map has room to expand to the left looking at the TOP perspective, and it was popuated a bit linearly as well. Being situated (transition-wise) near the the_keep, Keledros, and other great at-this-point-classic maps, there are also opportunities for quest links.

F*ck it, gotta re-configure Hammer on this machine now

 

[Thothie]

Speaking of baitable maps...

 

[MS:C community]

I like Oyster's idea here - forge items in both Wicardoven and Aluhundra, so my question is - are there any other maps you'd like to bait?

Alright, fine: keledrosprelude2, smugglers_cove, oceancrossing, isle, edanasewers to name a few. If you really want to make the phoenix armor a forge item, make players go through those ^ maps and ms_wicardoven and aluhandra2.

Edit: What do you mean by 'baitable map' anyway?

 

[Thothie]

smugglers_cove, oceancrossing, isle

Those three are particularly underloved - though in oceancossing's case, I think it's largely due to a combination of a lack of stability and the cannon being twitchy. So, I'd probably just require one from there. Edanaswers and keledrosprelude2 get a lotta traffic, just, not from people your level.

Maybe one more for idemarks_tower?

 

[Thothie]

Just for simplicity's sake, we'll call them fire gems with colors, for now:

ms_wicardoven: 1 white fire gem
smugglers_cove: 3 black fire gems
oceancrossing: 1 blue fire gem
isle: 2 green fire gems
aluhandra: 10 red fire gems
idemarks_tower: # gold fire gems.
= 1 phoenix armor, at Sorc_Villa (or Underforge).

I'm putting an # on Idemarks, as I'd need to go back to check the potential time sink, been awhile. In cases where the chests are readily accessible, will probably just attach it to the strongest/optional boss furthest in.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Alright, fine: keledrosprelude2, smugglers_cove, oceancrossing, isle, edanasewers to name a few. If you really want to make the phoenix armor a forge item, make players go through those ^ maps and ms_wicardoven and aluhandra2.

I partially agree with this. I think all of those maps should have some type of ingredient to them eventually but they don't ALL need to be on the phoenix armor.

also this suggestion doesnt necessarily need to apply to the Phoenix Armor in particular, it just needs to be considered when there's not enough loot to go around. Since there's only one new weapon this patch, this is the method I've been suggesting we use for loot on all the new maps.

Maybe one more for idemarks_tower?

yes, definitely!! but don't put all of these ingredients in one item. that many ingredients needs to be spread out over a couple different items. A forge item with 10+ unique ingredients feels almost comical, and i don't think that's the aesthetic we're going for.

 

[Thothie]

yes, definitely!! but don't put all of these ingredients in one item. that many ingredients needs to be spread out over a couple different items. A forge item with 10+ unique ingredients feels almost comical, and i don't think that's the aesthetic we're going for.

I'm thinking six different stacking items. I might have to quest tag it, so you can turn in some - but the bank can take stacking items now, so it shouldn't be too bad.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Just for simplicity sake, we'll call them fire gems with colors, for now:

I'm thinking six different stacking items. I might have to quest tag it, so you can turn in some - but the bank can take stacking items now, so it shouldn't be too bad.

I much prefer my suggestion in that ancient thread I posted. The item description of the phoenix armor claims it is made from the blood of an efreeti and the feathers of a phoenix, so that is what I suggest you collect. both efreetis and phoenix feathers conveniently fit the aesthetic of a desert map like aluhandra. I do like the idea of stacking items being used for forge ingredients though, but not every item should be a stacking item imo.

 

[Thothie]

ms_wicardoven: 1 white fire gem
smugglers_cove: 3 black fire gems
oceancrossing: 1 blue fire gem
isle: 2 green fire gems
aluhandra: 10 red fire gems
idemarks_tower: # gold fire gems.
= 1 phoenix armor, at Sorc_Villa (or Underforge).

Well we do have two maps in that list that only need a single item, so we don't need those items to stack - could be something else unique. However, if we make it efreetis hearts and phoenix feathers, that doesn't let us bait new maps without also moving those items.

(edit; Wait, I don't think phoenix feathers are a thing - so yeah, could use that.)

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

well it doesn't need to be exclusive to efreeti blood and phoenix feathers, there could be other items too, i just think those are more interesting than red gems.

also, technically it's the blood of an efreeti, not the heart of an efreeti, so you dont need to use the existing efreeti heart item for this. Would be cool if there were actually a rare efreeti blood potion (not sure what it would do) and that could be one of the ingredients you're required to obtain.

Another idea is, perhaps you could obtain some item that would extract the blood from the efreeti hearts you obtained.

 

[MS:C community]

ms_wicardoven: 1 white fire gem
smugglers_cove: 3 black fire gems
oceancrossing: 1 blue fire gem
isle: 2 green fire gems
aluhandra: 10 red fire gems
idemarks_tower: # gold fire gems.
= 1 phoenix armor, at Sorc_Villa (or Underforge).

I know this is a proof of concept, but those numbers don't make all that much sense to me. Why run the hardest map ten times? What about this instead:

ms_wicardoven: 1 white fire gem
smugglers_cove: 6 black fire gems
oceancrossing: 2 blue fire gems
isle: 6 green fire gems
aluhandra: 2 red fire gems

I mean I know I'm saying aluhandra2 should get more love, by whatever means possible, but a fetch quest x10 might not be the most player-friendly approach.

 

[Thothie]

well it doesn't need to be exclusive to efreeti blood and phoenix feathers, there could be other items too, i just think those are more interesting than red gems.

also, technically it's the blood of an efreeti, not the heart of an efreeti, so you dont need to use the existing efreeti heart item for this. Would be cool if there were actually a rare efreeti blood potion (not sure what it would do) and that could be one of the ingredients you're required to obtain.

Another idea is, perhaps you could obtain some item that would extract the blood from the efreeti hearts you obtained.

Eh, I guess. Though we're asking people to hunt efreetis an awful lot - and I'm not sure, off hand, if those maps have any. Fire gem was just my placeholder name, can be whatevs, I'm more concerned about ironing out the amount to effort ratio per map (eg. I only got one on oceancrossing as the odds of completing it are crap, and only one on ms_wicardoven, as you only need to see that play out once - but I gotta ton on Aluhandra, as it's stable and there's stuff to do).

 

[Thothie]

I know this is a proof of concept, but those numbers don't make all that much sense to me. Why run the hardest map ten times? What about this instead

Thought you wanted to bait that map. Well, it'd make it less of a loot fest, and given how much of the map is bypassable, the time sync, beyond the boss fight, is hard to predict - I could maybe require 3, and have one drop from the scorp, one from the bird, and one from the orc boss - that'd make sure it was a heavy time sync and you saw all its majesty (Oyster may hate that idea though.)

 

[MS:C community]

See ninja edit in prev. post

 

[Thothie]

ms_wicardoven: 1 white fire gem
smugglers_cove: 6 black fire gems
oceancrossing: 2 blue fire gems
isle: 6 green fire gems
aluhandra: 2 red fire gems
[idemarks_tower: # gold fire gems.]

If we did two red fire gems, instead of three, and placed them on those three bosses, you could then pick which of the two you wanted to kill - so same diff, more options. Sounds good.

REALLY hesitant to require two from ocean crossing though. I swear, sometimes feels like there's a 1/10 chance of completing that - and most of the time it's due to BS, or a crash, which is not fun to repeat.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Eh, I guess. Though we're asking people to hunt efreetis an awful lot - and I'm not sure, off hand, if those maps have any.

think outside the box a little. you don't necessarily have to fight the old efreetis for this. you could do what we were talking about earlier in the thread and put a randomly spawning special efreeti boss in aluhandra that only spawns sometimes, say when there's a sandstorm, since we have sandstorm weather that never got used.

Edit: also, I don't like how uniform your list of ingredients is. instead of just simple forge ingredients with no other purpose, some of these items could be consumables or other types of items with an alternative purpose. Example: get a special armor at Wicard, get a drinkable potion of efreeti blood, get an phoenix feather that you can equip that would revive you upon death one time before deleting itself, and also obtain red and gold fire gems. Mix them all together and turn it into Phoenix Armor.

That would be a much more interesting list of forge ingredients than a bunch of stuff that serves only one purpose.

 

[Thothie]

think outside the box a little. you don't necessarily have to fight the old efreetis for this. you could do what we were talking about earlier in the thread and put a randomly spawning special efreeti boss in aluhandra that only spawns sometimes, say when there's a sandstorm, since we have sandstorm weather that never got used.

It sounds more like thinking inside the box than outside, given how many times it's been done... But I'm also hoping to do this without adding monsters to existing maps unnecessarily, as changing the experience of the map would rather defeat the purpose of us baiting players there. I mean, if it was one of your maps, and that's what you wanted to do, I'd set you up, but...

 

[jon50559]

So unreliable though - depending on a sandstorm.

With a system like that, shouldn't you enable a quest to trigger a sandstorm?
To illustrate: Say the optional scorpion boss triggers sandstorm weather during his late HP phase - there are your optional boss conditions. You could also base it off of quest completion, but either way do not explicitly tell the player "Yo here's a special weather go kill optional boss NAO"

More like branching events that give you the suspension of disbelief it seems like you're asking for. Have a NPC dude sitting near spawn that off-handedly mentions an Efreeti last seen in a mirage during a sandstorm.

 

[Thothie]

More work, and thus more time, mind ye. If you wanna do something like that on your map, however, it'd be an idea. I mean we can always complicate the quest by requiring you inject the critter with something, or kill it in some specific state, or yeah, sandstorm - but, well - Thothie's productivity rate is crap right now, so KISS maybe the way to go (taking away time from NOV2015b for this too, but at least it's gotten more constructive).

I also don't wanna backburner Father Brandon's map anymore than I have to for this - it's starting to get cold back there.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

So unreliable though - depending on a sandstorm.

With a system like that, shouldn't you enable a quest to trigger a sandstorm?
To illustrate: Say the optional scorpion boss triggers sandstorm weather during his late HP phase - there are your optional boss conditions. You could also base it off of quest completion, but either way do not explicitly tell the player "Yo here's a special weather go kill optional boss NAO"

This makes good sense. I would still like the sandstorm to happen randomly as well but having some ability to reliably trigger it would be a good idea.

More work, and thus more time, mind ye. If you wanna do something like that on your map, however, it'd be an idea. I mean we can always complicate the quest by requiring you inject the critter with something, or kill it in some specific state, or yeah, sandstorm

This is all stuff that (correct me if I am wrong) can be done map side, no?

I also don't wanna backburner Father Brandon's map anymore than I have to for this - it's starting to get cold back there.

I didn't think that was ready yet?

 

[Thothie]

I am warning ya, again, it'd take me quite some time to script up a convincing sandstorm... Dunno how long you wanna wait for us to get back to Neverquest.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

I am warning ya, again, it'd take me quite some time to script up a convincing sandstorm... Dunno how long you wanna wait for us to get back to Neverquest.

What do you mean? We already have sandstorm weather that's never been used. You would just trigger it as simply as you do rain or snow now.