Dwarves still not patched out?

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Now, if you wanted to make a suggestion - rather than a rant, you'd suggest another place to put the thing.

My suggestion is to leave maps like that disconnected until there's a logical place to put them. My ideal suggestion would have been that Nashalrath should have been turned into a map like Cacaron or even Melanion because I think it could have been turned into either of those easily but, yeah that ones not a "real" suggestion anymore. Unlike my other ones ITT, which are very real suggestions.

You seem to expect suggestions to be so straight forward that you don't have to do any thinking at all, like "put X map at Y transition". Not all suggestions should (or can) be so specific.

but they have to function in a way that won't result in my having to roll back a dozen characters a week.

They do function in such a manner. You can travel from one end of the series and back to the beginning without crashing one single time. If the maps were a giant crash fest that'd be one thing, but they won't crash after 10 transitions even under the bloated alpha. Such is the utility of set_dyn_spawn.

Well a new game is the only hope for a game from scratch, which again, is why it's not a real suggestion.

Who is suggesting the game be remade from scratch? At least in this thread I only recall my suggestion of gradually expanding the mid level portion of the game and then nerfing stuff so players cannot just breeze past all the newly added maps. The only alternative to this is for mappers to just keep making shitty high level maps, bloating the end game even further and making the power creep worse, because without nerfing and readjusting the pacing of the game, any mid level content just gets skipped so there's no incentive to create it. A vicious cycle if there ever was one.

 

[Thothie]

My suggestion is to leave maps like that disconnected until there's a logical place to put them. My ideal suggestion would have been that Nashalrath should have been turned into a map like Cacaron or even Melanion because I think it could have been turned into either of those easily but, yeah that ones not a "real" suggestion anymore. Unlike my other ones ITT, which are very real suggestions.

You seem to expect suggestions to be so straight forward that you don't have to do any thinking at all, like "put X map at Y transition". Not all suggestions should (or can) be so specific.

I'd have to violate the mapper's request to do that. Do you think that's worth it? Anything you'd like to see moved to that transition in its stead? ...and is this really big enough a problem to do that? I didn't think a having a hidden Loreldian ruin in Daragoth would be all that far fetched.

They do function in such a manner. You can travel from one end of the series and back to the beginning without crashing one single time. If the maps were a giant crash fest that'd be one thing, but they won't crash after 10 transitions even under the bloated alpha. Such is the utility of set_dyn_spawn.

Doesn't have to crash to corrupt characters - in fact, if it crashes, it's less apt to happen, which is among the reasons why servers under the alpha now shut down between every transition. ...and we've been over this all already, twice now, over (literally) 40 pages in my inbox, one thread of which was so long the forum's database broke and turned it into about a hundred separate threads, causing me to lose a lot of critical developer threads. How much time do you think that conversation took away from development time, and now you want to have it again?

I gave you a solution you seemed to like even more than the original plan, as it involved a multi-stage world story quest, and offered a stop-gap compromise until that was done (or Underkeep was), but you keep rehashing this for some reason.

Who is suggesting the game be remade from scratch? At least in this thread I only recall my suggestion of gradually expanding the mid level portion of the game and then nerfing stuff so players cannot just breeze past all the newly added maps. The only alternative to this is for mappers to just keep making shitty high level maps, bloating the end game even further and making the power creep worse, because without nerfing and readjusting the pacing of the game, any mid level content just gets skipped so there's no incentive to create it. A vicious cycle if there ever was one.

The rants and attacks from the two recent threads are all blurring together, it's true, though most of them seem to just be off about the global nature of the game, and even that, yeah, re-write from scratch. The closest thing I've seen to suggestion I've seen from you (or community) is this, which almost requires re-writing the entire game, unless you mean continue what we've been doing, and adjust as we go.

But there's nothing about the situation which requires mappers to make high end maps - heck, most of the maps we've gotten from other mappers, as of late, have not been high end maps (eg. thornlands_north or kroush). The only reason to do that, is if your goal is to "beat" the best players in the game, and ignore the middle ground and lower end ups, or are otherwise working on an end game map (...and as I keep telling my friend's children when they DM D&D, "beating" the players should not be the objective). If one wants something more interesting than hack and slash, one should consider making maps that don't slaughter everyone but the best of players, and provide them with obstacles, other than combat.

So out of god knows how many lines of text you've both written, these are the suggestions I've gotten:
Extend the middle game. (On it, albeit slowly)
Disconnect Nashrlwatzitz. (Not really sure why, but if I could get a second on it, sure.)

That would have saved a lot of pain for both of us. No need to go on for ages about everything you feel is vaguely wrong - makes it very hard to find suggestions.

 

[Monika's_BFFEx0256]

Yeah people stop ranting!
I do second moving Nashland to some place more lore appropriate. Maybe in bloodrose or something..

 

[Thothie]

Think we're out of transitions there now... Last one being reserved for Melenion. (Might be one other, but I think it's a mountain pass, rather than a potential ruins entrance). It's also a tricky map to edit to add more transitions.

This is the one I was thinking from Sfor, but it's quite mystical looking compared to the entrance on the other side. Though, unlike Bloodrose, Nash is pretty easy to edit. (Though I still think it'd be a lotta work fixing what isn't really broke.)

There's some other transitions, kindly listed by J-M here.

Oyster's proposal is to simply disconnect it though.

I might understand the problem if there was a giant dragon temple on the surface right outside of Deralia - but this entrance is at least somewhat hidden. I could, I suppose, move it to the cave network, add a door in there, that only opens for 1000+ hp or something, as if inviting you in, just waiting for the right energy, or such. Maybe could get another clip of Deciplant's voice inviting you from Poof. (Would need a seconding to make it worth my time to do, especially at the moment - though I do need to fiddle down there eventually, if we're ever going to find Erkhold's kid.)

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

I'd have to violate the mapper's request to do that.

The mappers request was for the map to be the ultimate end game map with villains pulled out of gurluas' ass who were supposed to be more powerful than Lor Malgoriand. That lore was scrapped due to a revolt amongst the playerbase, leaving a gorgeous map with no lore. Nash could have been turned into a lore map but instead it's just another random dungeon with no purpose or integration into the world. If the mapper were against renaming it "Cacaron" or "Melanion" then that's fine but absent any protest from the mapper himself, it'd be a waste to turn a map like that into "just another random dungeon".

This is veering off topic now, though. It was just a hypothetical suggestion that I wish had been done long ago, not something I'm suggesting you do now.

Anything you'd like to see moved to that transition in its stead?

Ironically, Deralia Sewers would fit there, much as I hate the map. Maybe dridje can be pursuaded to remake Deralia Sewers since he appears to be in a remake mood right now.

Doesn't have to crash to corrupt characters - in fact, if it crashes, it's less apt to happen, which is among the reasons why servers under the alpha now shut down between every transition

Just changing maps is what causes corruption? If that's so then what's the difference between changing maps via votemap or not? Why would voting to 10 random maps be less likely to corrupt you than walking to 10 random maps? People vote from map to map to map all day and that causes them corruption too. Why would using a transition point be any different?

I gave you a solution you seemed to like even more than the original plan, as it involved a multi-stage world story quest, and offered a stop-gap compromise until that was done (or Underkeep was), but you keep rehashing this for some reason.

I'm only bringing this up because you just made the same argument I've made repeatedly, which was that "if you don't like the maps, you don't have to play them".

But there's nothing about the situation which requires mappers to make high end maps

There is a strong incentive to not make low-mid level maps because of how quickly players will level past them. Maps like that are very likely to be skipped by players of the intended level range. All of the low-mid level maps that have been created recently, such as Thornlands_north or kroush have been made in spite of this problem. The late game is so bad that it's better to make a fun map that most people don't play than it is to create a high level map that gets played by everyone just because it has loot.

So out of god knows how many lines of text you've both written, these are the suggestions I've gotten:
Extend the middle game. (On it, albeit slowly)
Disconnect Nashrlwatzitz. (Not really sure why, but if I could get a second on it, sure.)

It's weird how you think that's the only thing that was suggested, or even that these things are being suggested explicitly. These are simply examples that are given to explain what is being suggested. Here's some suggestions I remember:

- Take aesthetics into account. An example of when you did not do this was when you put Nashalrath outside of Deralia, or when you put Mummies in Deralia Sewer. I am not suggesting that you take mummies out or move nashalrath (although I think both are solid suggestions), I am using those as examples so you can understand the problem and stop doing it in the future.

- Stop making maps with hack'n'slash gameplay, especially if they were intended to be adventure-style maps. Some examples of when you did this are Deralia Sewers and Orc_for

- Extend the middle game so you have room to nerf content and fix the power creep.

- Stop being dismissive of other peoples suggestions. An example of this is what you just did right here. Clearly more than two suggestions were made.

Think we're out of transitions there now... Last one being reserved for Melenion.

A transition to Nashalrath might be able to go in Melanion itself, actually. There's a couple good spots that have doors that kinda sorta match the start of Nashalrath. Melanion is pretty close to being done as well, only really needing some monsters and npc's at this point.

 

[Thothie]

The mappers request was for the map to be the ultimate end game map with villains pulled out of gurluas' ass who were supposed to be more powerful than Lor Malgoriand. That lore was scrapped due to a revolt amongst the playerbase, leaving a gorgeous map with no lore. Nash could have been turned into a lore map but instead it's just another random dungeon with no purpose or integration into the world. If the mapper were against renaming it "Cacaron" or "Melanion" then that's fine but absent any protest from the mapper himself, it'd be a waste to turn a map like that into "just another random dungeon".

This is veering off topic now, though. It was just a hypothetical suggestion that I wish had been done long ago, not something I'm suggesting you do now.

I'm talking about where Little Frodo suggested it transition from, not what Little-G wanted from it. Don't think Little-G had much to do with the map itself, so much as he got a fragment from J that Frodo built on. (IIRC - maybe the other way around.)

But yes, you are asking me to violate the mapper's request, for... What seems very little reason to me. I don't think it'd be a terrible violation to move it somewhere else, but disconnecting it...

edit: Also, reading that again:

Nash could have been turned into a lore map but instead it's just another random dungeon with no purpose or integration into the world.

Literally, introducing one of the four dragons in the world you're eventually going to have to deal with in person. It doesn't get much more lore map than that, outside a town.

Ironically, Deralia Sewers would fit there, much as I hate the map. Maybe dridje can be pursuaded to remake Deralia Sewers since he appears to be in a remake mood right now.

Entering a sewer from a waterfall... Okay... Somehow think it'd be more logical to enter the sewers, from the sewers. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Did find it a bit odd that the sewers go UP into the swamp, rather than drain out into them, but map space constraints. Could write if off as the forest overgrew part of what was once a larger city. (Granted, could be a flow direction thing, if the sewers emptied into a cavern, or overflow, if the exit wasn't higher than the entrance.)

Though I've never really seen a real problem with the map myself, at least none that the majority of the others don't share.

ust changing maps is what causes corruption? If that's so then what's the difference between changing maps via votemap or not? Why would voting to 10 random maps be less likely to corrupt you than walking to 10 random maps? People vote from map to map to map all day and ths

Seems to be something weird the transition data change is doing. So far, no one has figured out what - not even Solokiller, who spent a few months on it, and is a professional game coder. ...and we've been over that before too.

I'm only bringing this up because you just made the same argument I'd made repeatedly, which was that "if you don't like the maps, you don't have to play them".

I'm not sure what one has to do with the other... The claim was you could do that, but the experience wouldn't be any different, save that you'd visit a lot less places.

There is a strong incentive to not make low-mid level maps because of how quickly players will level past them. Maps like that are very likely to be skipped by players of the intended level range. All of the low-mid level maps that have been created recently, such as Thornlands_north or kroush have been made in spite of this problem. The late game is so bad that it's better to make a fun map that most people don't play than it is to create a high level map that gets played by everyone just because it has loot.

Mind, this is a result of a community suggestion - namely that they weren't getting enough XP. But making more high end maps doesn't seem to be a good solution, so much as it is asking for more high end loot to fight said maps with. (Hence the bombs you insist I do not remove.)

But centralizing and remaking the treasure system is indeed an epic task, which is why it keeps getting pushed further away on the back burner. Adjustments over other possible factors have been made over time, but there's a lot of them to do. If you have something specific we haven't thought of...

- Take aesthetics into account. An example of when you did not do this was when you put Nashalrath outside of Deralia, or when you put Mummies in Deralia Sewer. I am not suggesting that you take mummies out or move nashalrath (although I think both are solid suggestions), I am using those as examples so you can understand the problem and stop doing it in the future.

So you want me to deny mapper's requests so we don't get more variety in our maps?

Also, it's a waterfall. I fail to see the aesthetic impact. It was there before the map was connected. I could see it as a misstep in progression arrangement, but again, hidden, and with a warning at that. We have similarly drastic level jumps that don't involve a hidden entrance (including one of your own).

Mind there also are not enough map connectors to really put all the maps in a smooth level progression - hence Thanatos and Phlame's connecting to Sfor and the like (though at least there's warnings and some increased danger on the way). If you could make a map of all the existing transitions and how you'd like them to fit together so that all the liked-leveled maps would be clustered near one another, that'd be great, but I don't think I could pull that off myself.

- Stop making maps with hack'n'slash gameplay, especially if they were intended to be adventure-style maps. Some examples of when you did this are Deralia Sewers and Orc_for

How would you go about making Deralia Sewers or Orc_For not hack and slash game play? Actually thought Orc_For was one of the few we had that wasn't entirely hack and slash, since you actually had to use strategy and cover to avoid the goblins everyone hates. Would it be less hack and slash if they weren't there, and you just got to hack and slash on regular goblins without thinking about it, as the mapper apparently intended, but never told me? (Basically, Globintown, with self adjusting goblins - is Goblintown somehow less hack and slash than Orc_for, assuming you're in that very low level range?)

- Extend the middle game so you have room to nerf content and fix the power creep.

That would require the high end maps I get in not to be getting increasingly harder. Are you asking me to nerf your maps?

- Stop being dismissive of other peoples suggestions. An example of this is what you just did right here. Clearly more than two suggestions were made.

Again, I've taken a lot of people's suggestions over the years, that's why we're here now. Yours include miles of rant, which makes it difficult to tell what you really want. It would also help to make the 'suggestions' less vague. "Don't make it like a AAA game", is nonsensical to me in this context. I also have very few opportunities to make maps "not hack and slash", without completely reworking the map, or violating mapper's specific instructions.

A transition to Nashalrath might be able to go in Melanion itself, actually. There's a couple good spots that have doors that kinda sorta match the start of Nashalrath. Melanion is pretty close to being done as well, only really needing some monsters and npc's at this point.

Well we can move it when we have a Melenion then, but I don't see anyone else asking for it to be disconnected meantime, and don't see the logic in it myself. Also, assuming we go with the original plan for Melenion's level range, it'd only be slightly less of a jump.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

I am just going to focus on one single point at a time, because this particular point really needs to be driven home:

(Basically, Globintown, with self adjusting goblins - is Goblintown somehow less hack and slash than Orc_for?)

Yeah it is. Way less, in fact. You aren't required to kill or do a single thing in Goblintown except for whatever triggers the NPC in the jail cell (i forget what the trigger is), but even that isn't required.

Goblin town has 1) a hidden entrance 2) an intricate maze, designed to be explored 3) treasure chests to find by exploring instead of just killing stuff until a chest spawns 3) an optional quest to rescue a jailed NPC, which results in a reward that is 4) given on a different map. 5) there's also an optional boss to kill whose head you can collect and return to an npc on a different map which 6) starts a completely different questline that takes you to even more maps. In addition to all that, there's 7) optional grinding.

Let's contrast this with orc_for, which has only the following objectives, all of which you must do:

1) kill every single monster in every single room, then kill a boss.

2) collect all the treasure - it ALL has to spawn or else you're not getting the steam crossbow, so you don't even get to pick and choose what you want to fight like in goblintown.


Please explain how you can possible think these two maps present a similar experience. The experience between them is drastically different and goblintown is way more fun than orc_for because of it. It's also way more nostalgic because Goblintown functions as an adventure map, like thornlands, whereas Orc_for has more in common with phlames, bloodshrine, nashalrath, etc. etc. etc.



Since this is a nostalgia based game it is extremely troubling that you cannot see the difference between orc_for and goblintown. Goblintown allows you to create your own adventure. Orc_for just forces you to kill everything until there's nothing left to do.

 

[Thothie]

The mapper provided no maze for Orc_For.

In Goblin town, yea, you have the option of not getting all the treasure, just as you do in Orc_For.

You can choose not to explore all of Orc_For, just as you can choose not to explore all of Goblintown.

You can choose not to kill everything in Orc_For, just as you can choose not to kill everything in Goblin Town.

If you fail to do those things, you will get less of a reward, on either map.

So yes, other than a maze, and one being much more difficult, and having a few nasty bastards you have to figure ways to avoid, I don't see the playstyle difference between the two.

Orc_For is easier to explore, structurally, but that's map structure, not usually my department. I guess you're saying I should have added a maze.

Though, to be honest, I find personally Orc_For more fun. Not my favorite map, but more variety of things to do than in Goblintown, which is basically run through easy maze, and kill a bunch of copies of the exact same two or three goblins the exact same way, where as Orc_For has a wide variety of encounters that require different tactics. More vertical variety woulda been nice, but again, not usually my department.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

You can choose not to explore all of Orc_For, just as you can choose not to explore all of Goblintown.

No. You. Can't. I'm so sick of these wishy washy, deliberately misleading answers from you. If you do that in orc_for then that defeats the ONLY purpose of going to orc_for in the first place.

I don't see the playstyle difference between the two.

Well everybody else can see it plain as day. You have utterly killed the nostalgia in this game because you choose not to see this.

So yes, other than a maze

other than a maze, two quests that integrate with other maps, and treasure that's found in a completely different fashion, you don't see the difference?

You just ignored more than half of the examples I gave to differentiate the two maps. Why?

 

[Thothie]

No. You. Can't. I'm so sick of these wishy washy, deliberately misleading answers from you. If you do that in orc_for then that defeats the ONLY purpose of going to orc_for in the first place.

If you don't kill all gobbies and get all the treasure, you've defeated the purpose of going to Goblintown. Only additional goal is to get through the maze, which again, Orc_For lacks.

other than a maze, two quests that integrate with other maps, and treasure that's found in a completely different fashion, you don't see the difference?

Ooooh... Think they came in via edits. So, if a goblin chief in Orc_For dropped his head, and you freed someone from a cage (all of which happens if you kill everything in Goblintown, and more or less requires that you do), and we added a maze, that'd make the maps identical?

Granted the mapper did not provide nor request a maze or cage, and the "get the goblin chief's head" thing had kinda already been done, no request for that either.

So that's how I ruined Orc_For, and turned into a hack and slash map. By not adding a goblin chief's head to get, and someone in a cage to rescue, and a maze. Basically I didn't add enough more stuff that wasn't requested.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

You can choose not to explore all of Orc_For, just as you can choose not to explore all of Goblintown.

You can choose not to kill everything in Orc_For, just as you can choose not to kill everything in Goblin Town.

You do not get penalized for doing this in goblin town!!!!

If you don't kill all gobbies and get all the treasure, you've defeated the purpose of going to Goblintown. Only additional goal is to get through the maze, which again, Orc_For lacks.

wat? There's at least 4 different reasons to go to goblin town, none of which rely on each other. 1) You can go to start the golden axe quest, 2) you can go to do the npc-in-jail quest, 3) you can go just to explore, 4) you can go for treasure and 5) you can go for xp.

Only 4 and 5 apply to orc for.

all of which happens if you kill everything in Goblintown, and more or less requires that you do

Nothing in goblintown requires you kill one single monster. You don't have to kill anything to get treasure, you don't have to kill anything except maybe one monster to save the NPC in jail, you only have to kill one monster to collect the goblin chiefs head, and you don't have to kill anything to explore.

There is only one thing to do in orc_for; kill stuff. In goblintown you don't even get anything for killing monsters except for xp. There is absolutely no incentive in goblintown to kill everything, whereas the entire point of orc_for is to kill everything so you can get the best chances for the steamxbow and there's NOTHING ELSE to do other than that.

So, if a goblin chief in Orc_For dropped his head, and you freed someone from a cage (all of which happens if you kill everything in Goblintown, and more or less requires that you do), and we added a maze, that'd make the maps identical?

If Orc_for had multiple quests that you had to explore to find, whose objectives were completed on a different map and you could also find some unrelated hidden treasure via exploration, and you were not encouraged to kill EVERY monster because they all spawn treasure chests, and you couldn't just teleport there then they'd be closer to identical.

That's a massive difference though. Surely you are just playing the pilpul game when you pretend to disagree. You cannot be this blind.

A good map integrates with other maps and has multiple different objectives that are completely unrelated to each other. Orc_for has none of this. It's just clear the map and repeat.

 

[Thothie]

Nothing in goblintown requires you kill one single monster. You don't have to kill anything to get treasure, you don't have to kill anything except maybe one monster to save the NPC in jail, you only have to kill one monster to collect the goblin chiefs head, you don't have to kill anything to explore.

If your HP is so high you can just ignore all the monsters, sure. Free lewt isn't really the intent though, but also why the treasure is pretty meh.

wat? There's at least 4 different reasons to go to goblin town, none of which rely on each other. 1) You can go to start the golden axe quest, 2) you can go to do the npc-in-jail quest, 3) you can go just to explore, 4) you can go for treasure and 5) you can go for xp.

Only 4 and 5 apply to orc for.

I did add the golden axe quest without direct permission, and fixed the npc-jail quest.

Though after the maze, there's only one path through you can really take. Not quite the network that say, mscave is. Not much to explore. Just a series of rooms with monsters, till you hit the cabin to fight the boss chief, or the other cliff..

So should have I added a bunch of tunnels and mazes to make Orc_For an exploration map? (Leaving aside the fact that it'd probably take me longer to do than it took to create the map.)

How would you react if I added a bunch of tunnels and mazes to your maps?

Did I ruin Orc_For by not doing that without it being requested?

I probably will add a quest to Orc_for eventually - though I think it's one of the problem maps I ran into when thinking about where to place Dynamic Quest coords - not much in way of places to put a DQ. Might have to come up with a system that deletes an existing monster spawn.

But if I get a map in that is just flat with three areas, and already has placeholders for spawners, and no place for NPCs or such, and specific instructions/placeholders as to what the mapper wants - I don't usually go adding a bunch of mazes and quests.

I'll occasionally do that if I'm left with an empty or abandoned map with no real instructions, especially if it has a lot of obvious places for such. (Or, as for instance, with Sorc_Villa, is clearly a village.)

But to say I turned Orc_For into a hack and slash map, by doing exactly as the mapper requested... You see what I'm getting at here?

Seems the only thing I did to make it less of a hack and slash map, the mapper wasn't pleased with, but didn't bother telling me.

Do you remember when you listed a bunch of maps you considered "raid" maps, and blamed me for, and then a bunch of maps that you said were "not raid maps", and found out the only ones I had populated, were in the second group?

But to boil this all down to suggestions:
Make more quests. (On it, as you well know.)
Make more exploration maps. (Not my department, but if I ever get to map again, definitely.)
Convert simple maps into exploration maps. (Eh... Not really my department, not always possible, and generally would feel the need to get permission.)

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

If your HP is so high you can just ignore all the monsters, sure

If your HP isn't high enough is when people have the most incentive to avoid the monsters. Run for your dear life, hope you don't get cornered and maybe you'll find something shiny or interesting like a quest along the way. That's way more exciting than clearing a room so a treasure chest will spawn.

So should have I added a bunch of tunnels and mazes to make Orc_For an exploration map?

There's a million ways you could have populated orc_for without adding new brushes. This is getting ridiculous.

You did add tunnels and mazes, though. Srgnt rehab lamented that you copied and pasted an entire section of his forest and re-pasted it at the end, where the spiders are. I jokingly called him "Srgnt Prefab" for years because he had a big honking prefabbed room in the middle of his map that he never wanted. So what's your point? You take these liberties anyway.

How would you react if I added a bunch of tunnels and mazes to your maps?

It depends on what was done. If somebody did something to one of my maps that I thought was beneficial then I would have a positive reaction. However, since you seem to think there is no difference between orc_for and goblintown, I would have a negative reaction if YOU added that stuff because I've always intended for my maps to function exactly like the ms_cave/goblintown/gatecity series and if you started making changes, experience dictates that you would turn the maps into something much closer to orc_for than goblintown.

Did I ruin Orc_For by not doing that without it being requested?

Well I was talking to rehab the entire time he was making that map and I know exactly what his intentions were, which was to make a thornlands style map. Maybe he didn't communicate that clearly to you but if you can't understand the obvious differences between goblin_town and orc_for then I doubt the problem lies with his communication skills.

But if I get a map in that is just flat with three areas, and already has placeholders for spawners, and no place for NPCs or such

This, right here, is the problem. You are not creative. ANY room in orc_for could have had an npc in it. You could easily have set up thornlands_north style events where sometimes a room has monsters in it, but other times it has a quest npc. That's just one of a near infinite number of things you could have done, though. You could have had an npc show up that's under attack by some monsters, who gives a quest after you save him. You could have an npc show up during a weather event, or at night time or at dusk. You could have had a quest item spawn instead of a traditional npc. The only limit is your creativity, which is apparently one of the biggest limits MSC has.

I can say, with first hand knowledge, that rehab intended for something along the lines of what I just described because I was talking to him about it the entire time he was making the map.

This isn't about orc_for in particular though, you could have done stuff like this to any of the maps you've worked on over the years but you've neglected to do it on all of them.

But to say I turned Orc_For into a hack and slash map, by doing exactly as the mapper requested... You see what I'm getting at here?

Dunno why you say he requested this when all evidence suggests that he didn't. We have a chatlog of him lamenting the "goblins and demons" you put in the map, and I have first hand knowledge that his intention was to create something along the lines of thornlands because I was talking to him the entire time he was making the map.

But regardless of what rehabs intentions may or may not have been, the example that orc_for presents remains unchanged. Regardless of what you should have done, orc_for is a bad map because of what was done. Maybe you should have done exactly what you did, but it's still a bad map because of it, and if you apply that formula to any future maps, those maps are also going to be terrible.

 

[Thothie]

If your HP isn't high enough is when people have the most incentive to avoid the monsters. Run for your dear life, hope you don't get cornered and maybe you'll find something shiny or interesting like a quest along the way. That's way more exciting than clearing a room so a treasure chest will spawn.

If your HP is at the intended levels, goblins will pelt you to death with rocks as you try to run by.

here's a million ways you could have populated orc_for without adding new brushes. This is getting ridiculous.

If I wanted to ignore all the place holders and his instructions, yeah.

You did add tunnels and mazes, though. Srgnt rehab lamented that you copied and pasted an entire section of his forest and re-pasted it at the end, where the spiders are. I jokingly called him "Srgnt Prefab" for years because he had a big honking prefabbed room in the middle of his map that he never wanted. So what's your point? You take these liberties anyway.

I don't recall doing any such thing (given the poly makeup, I don't think I could do that, without a lotta work.).

There's a million ways you could have populated orc_for without adding new brushes. This is getting ridiculous.

He provided placeholders for all his spawns, it's populated exactly the way he asked.

Well I was talking to rehab the entire time he was making that map and I know exactly what his intentions were, which was to make a thornlands style map.

I call BS... And it's cruel to suggest Rehab is foolish enough to use this almost entirely 2D structure to try to make a thornlands style map - lest he meant the general aesthetic and textures, and it has that.

This, right here, is the problem. You are not creative. Every single room in orc_for could have had an npc in it. You could easily have set up thornlands_north style events where sometimes a room has monsters in it, but other times it has a quest npc. That's just one of a near infinite number of things you could have done, though. You could have had an npc show up that's under attack by some monsters, who gives a quest after you save him. You could have an npc show up during a weather event, or at night time or at dusk.

I can say, with first hand knowledge, that rehab intended for something along the lines of what I just described because I was talking to him about it the entire time he was making the map.

Not what I was given, nor what was requested. I mean sure, I coulda put a whole NPC village in there, but there were already placeholders there, and I did what he asked.

Dunno why you say he requested this when all evidence suggests that he didn't. We have a chatlog of him lamenting the "goblins and demons" you put in the map, and I have first hand knowledge that his intention was to create something along the lines of thornlands because I was talking to him the entire time he was making the map.

Actually the goblin towns were partially populated (all msmonster_warrior orcs under a spawns named "gobtown_#". Think the only place that had no place holders at all was the boss chamber.

Though the demons are merely "upgrades" of the self adjustment process - which admittedly, did not go as well as planned. On the low end, it's mostly orcs and ogres. Lest you mean the fire orcs in the castle path, those, yes, I did add, previously just generic orc placeholders (and eventually intend to run that into a plot involving Sorcs, Maldora, and Khaz). Armored trolls, similarly, previously just generic msmonster_trolls.

...and again, he had it for two months to make a complaint. Nadda.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

You're ignoring the primary point which is that orc_for is an example of a bad map. I don't care whether or not there's some justification for doing that to orc_for, because almost every map is like this.

Not what I was given, nor what was requested. I mean sure, I coulda put a whole NPC village in there, but there were already placeholders there, and I did what he asked.

That's fine, why haven't you done this with any maps, though? My argument doesn't apply to just orc_for. From here on out, let's replace the words "orc_for" with "X_map", okay?


Why does "X_map" consist of nothing more than clearing all the rooms and getting loot?

And it's cruel to suggest Rehab is foolish enough to use this almost entirely 2D structure to try to make a thornlands style map - lest he meant the general aesthetic and textures, and it has that.

Thornlands_north is almost entirely flat and it accomplishes this just fine.

 

[Thothie]

You're ignoring the primary point which is that orc_for is an example of a bad map. I don't care whether or not there's some justification for doing that to orc_for, because almost every map is like this.

Thing is, you're blaming me for not turning what you think are "bad maps" into "good maps", while simultaneously accusing me of altering people's maps. You blamed me for the entire Lodagond series, FFS, a largely linear map, populated almost entirely by Crow. You blamed me for Phlames, Phobia, Curse of the Bear Gods, Hunderswamp, The_Keep, Bloodshrine, Gertenheld Forest, NONE OF WHICH I POPULATED. (And most of which I think are pretty damn good maps anyways.)

The only way you can blame me for having so many "raid" maps, is by the fact that I allowed them to be added. Most of our maps come in populated.

That's fine, why haven't you done this with any maps, though? My argument doesn't apply to just orc_for. From here on out, let's replace the words "orc_for" with "X_map", okay?

What, like Sorc_villa? I did actually populate that... Partially populated Aluhandra and Aleyesu, which you say are "not raid maps". Wicard Oven? Is that a "raid map"? I dunno, name a map that you think isn't a "raid map" that isn't one of the original eleven (though even there, I re-populated some of those), as your definition still eludes me, as it seems to be coming down to whether or not it has free treasures, mazes, and quests (and I created almost every quest we have).

Most maps we get in are linear monster slaughters, because that's what is easiest to make, so that's what mappers do, and it's generally not easy to take a linear map and turn it into an exploration map. ...But I think we've been here before too, and are just repeating the same argument we had in DM's now.

Thornlands_north is almost entirely flat and it accomplishes this just fine.

It's a nice map, but no, not really, it's just three different paths with varied encounters. Thornlands has a whole series of caves to explore, and a nice calm random spawn plain to wander around on the surface and hang out, connecting them all. They are entirely different map styles, beyond some shared forest texture aesthetics.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

You blamed me for the entire Lodagond series, FFS, a largely linear map, populated almost entirely by Crow.

I never blamed you for lodagond, I blamed you for "turning every map into the lodagond formula".

Phlames, Phobia, Curse of the Bear Gods, Hunderswamp, The_Keep, Bloodshrine, Gertenheld Forest, NONE OF WHICH I POPULATED.

So who did Phlames, then? Who rigged up the midget khaztorants at the beginning that shout "get out of here!!" for example? That map came in as is?

Wicard Oven? Is that a "raid map"?

Yes, definitely. There's hardly a clearer example of a raid map than Wicard, although it gets bonus points for the voldar part being totally optional. It would be dumb as hell if Wicard functioned like orc_for, where the steam xbow's drop rate increases with each chest you spawn. If the Phoenix Armor drop rate increased by spawning both Voldar and Maldoras chests, like the steamxbow does, then Wicard would lose it's best aspect and become even more of a raid map.

You should never, ever encourage or force players to do everything in a map on a single run. That is terrible game design.

I dunno, name a map that you think isn't a "raid map" that isn't one of the original eleven

Gertenheld_cape

as your definition still eludes me, as it seems to be coming down to whether or not it has free treasures, mazes, and quests (and I created almost every quest we have).

It comes down to whether or not you feel like you're going on an adventure vs feeling like you're slogging through a dungeon to get the loot at the end. What about this is hard to understand?

orc_for is a dungeon, plain and simple. ms_cave/goblintown/gatecity take you on an integrated adventure.

 

[Thothie]

I never blamed you for lodagond, I blamed you for "turning every map into the lodagond formula".

*sigh* Not what I have in my inbox - so which maps have I turned into the lodagond formula?

Gertenheld_cape

Think that was mostly Dridge. Though the key to that is a radial structure with a lighthouse in the middle, so even if it was unpopulated and left without instruction, I probably woulda gone with a quest hub too (as I did with the empty Bloodrose - with assist from EvilSquirrel). Does require you to kill everything on the map and do it all in one go, if you want all the goodies though, since the last quest requires you've done all the others.

So who did Phlames, then? Who rigged up the midget khaztorants at the beginning that shout "get out of here!!" for example? That map came in as is?

Think that was Cal - thought that was pretty silly, but kept it anyways. Only bit I populated there was the boss (requested wizard wars fire wizard, which I reskinned). Think the reaver was upgraded by request. I did reskin the cultists for it though.

You should never, ever encourage or force players to do everything in a map on a single run. That is terrible game design.

That's how about half of the original 11 maps work, and how most of your maps work.

It comes down to whether or not you feel like you're going on an adventure vs feeling like you're slogging through a dungeon to get the loot at the end. What about this is hard to understand?

orc_for is a dungeon, plain and simple. ms_cave/goblintown/gatecity take you on an integrated adventure.

That's nice, welcome to the "I want more thornland maps" club, of which I'm a card carrying member.

Now, why do I get the blame for mappers not making more thornlands maps?

 

[Monika's_BFFEx0256]

You know, hunderswamp makes the least amount of sense. Being on a fucking mountain, to suddenly dropping 100 feet and being in a tropical swamp... Yeah okay.

 

[MS:C community]

Now, why do I get the blame for mappers not making more thornlands maps?

Oh, that's really easy. The last time a mapper with actual skill made a real free-roam map, the map got snubbed. I am of course talking about aluhandra2 by GODLIKE mapper Rickler.

There's no unique reward in aluhandra2 whatsoever and therefore people don't ever go there. And that's truly a shame because as far as Goldsource maps go, aluhandra2 is a masterpiece. A work of art. And I believe that's more than just an opinion. The amount of skill it takes to create huge, good-looking open areas like that, in Goldsource, is simply not understood by most people who visit these boards. Most people who ever mapped for MS:C, me definitely included, can only dream they could ever create maps that good.

Rehab got close with Hunderswamp North (a former free-roam map that is now yet another linear snorefest because of the web removal potion fetch quest), Dehoth did a fantastic job with Kroush (easily one of the best new maps in years), I've yet to see most of Dridje's Thornlands North (but what I've seen thusfar was very promising) but most of the maps that have been released in the past ten years are complete trash.

The_wall, catacombs, bloodshrine, tundra, umulak, gertenhell and deraliasewers (except the sewers part, which is free-roam goodness) are all hot garbage.
Why were they made? Their respective mappers wanted to make TEH HARDEST DUNGON MAPE!!!1! at the time.
Why did they want to make hard dungeon maps? Because they knew dungeon maps get unique loot, and therefore will be played.

If you really want more free-roam maps, you should send a clear message: put the phoenix armor (or an item of comparable value) in the aluhandra2 final chest.

 

[zeus9860]

I get blamed for "hacks" and other complete nonsense all the time, even when I'm not even playing the mod. I've grown used to it though and, occasionally, I'll gladly take the blame for stuff I never did, so that other people can escape your ire and, possibly, malicious [FN] character edits / additions.

Too many hacks under that name, even the forums do justice to that name with this:



1 banned title? Pfft, filthy casuals.

and I was the only one of the eleven people on the team at the time who voted otherwise

DRIDJE?

Ironically, Deralia Sewers would fit there, much as I hate the map. Maybe dridje can be pursuaded to remake Deralia Sewers since he appears to be in a remake mood right now.

No, we need a gertenhell remake to go along with the cleicert remake. The original cleicert was nicknamed as the "ms:c public bathroom" hub by few people in the community. Gertenhell is there to complement the idea of taking a toilet break.

Spoiler

/jk

The_wall

View attachment Stop right there criminal scum.mp4

 

[zeus9860]

Totally unrelated, seems like you can't use the sarcasm (upside down smiley) in the comments. Gives an error message everytime you try to comment if you use that.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

That's how about half of the original 11 maps work, and how most of your maps work.

No it's not you willfully oblivious goon. It's not how any of the original maps work or how any of my maps work.

There's no unique reward in aluhandra2 whatsoever and therefore people don't ever go there.

inb4 Thothie claims this isn't true.

If you really want more free-roam maps, you should send a clear message: put the phoenix armor (or an item of comparable value) in the aluhandra2 final chest.

inb4 Thothie contradicts himself and says this can't be done on a free roam map because you can get to the chest too easily since you don't have to clear everything in every room.

After all, finding a treasure via exploration is a "free" treasure according to Thothie. Exploring a maze doesn't count as "work", only killing stuff does, according to his "logic".

That's nice, welcome to the "I want more thornland maps" club, of which I'm a card carrying member.

You can't even appreciate the difference between orc_for and goblintown, or understand why goblin town is objectively better, so there's no way you are actually in this club.

You continue to do everything you can to stop maps like this from functioning properly whether you realize it or not. MSC:Communities last post explains this rather nicely. Indeed, if we take your comments ITT at face value, you don't even understand how maps like thornlands or goblintown function at all.

 

[Thothie]

You know, hunderswamp makes the least amount of sense. Being on a fucking mountain, to suddenly dropping 100 feet and being in a tropical swamp... Yeah okay.

Well, ecologically, it works - swamps and marshlands are often the result of runoff from mountains trapping a warm air current as they flow into lakes and oceans, it's just a little difficult to depict that on a reasonable scale on a 1998 engine.

Oh, that's really easy. The last time a mapper with actual skill made a real free-roam map, the map got snubbed. I am of course talking about aluhandra2 by GODLIKE mapper Rickler.

Half of which I populated, so thanks?

There's no unique reward in aluhandra2 whatsoever and therefore people don't ever go there. And that's truly a shame because as far as Goldsource maps go, aluhandra2 is a masterpiece. A work of art. And I believe that's more than just an opinion. The amount of skill it takes to create huge, good-looking open areas like that, in Goldsource, is simply not understood by most people who visit these boards. Most people who ever mapped for MS:C, me definitely included, can only dream they could ever create maps that good.

And we had nothing to put there at the time, and we've been too busy doing other things to rearrange all the world's treasure.

Though frankly I wish it had more to explore, being essentially a two directional gauntlet. It looks nice though.

Rehab got close with Hunderswamp North (a former free-roam map that is now yet another linear snorefest because of the web removal potion fetch quest), Dehoth did a fantastic job with Kroush (easily one of the best new maps in years), I've yet to see most of Dridje's Thornlands North (but what I've seen thusfar was very promising) but most of the maps that have been released in the past ten years are complete trash.

In Hunderswwamp's case, we both decided being able to go straight to the boss for massive XP and treasure was a problem. So the two options were: nerf the encounter, and it''s XP and the treasure, or make you do more to reach the boss. We went with the latter. So now that there's one area you can't get to quickly, the map is ruined, great.

Kroush is great, yes. Though it's still a hub of gauntlets, for the most part, it still manages to provide a fair illusion of exploration with a fair variety of encounters.

I'm sorry you feel near everyone's maps are trash though.

The_wall, catacombs, bloodshrine, tundra, umulak, gertenhell and deraliasewers (except the sewers part, which is free-roam goodness) are all hot garbage.
Why were they made? Their respective mappers wanted to make TEH HARDEST DUNGON MAPE!!!1! at the time.
Why did they want to make hard dungeon maps? Because they knew dungeon maps get unique loot, and therefore will be played.

I don't think that was the intent for most of those, nor were most of them the hardest maps in the game when they were released, though it maybe that, yes, when they make them harder they expect better rewards - and while that's logical, it's a sad state of affairs if you're just making your maps harder for better loot - which, as you so often point out, doesn't always work out for them, as there's not always new phat lewt forthcoming. A lot of those maps don't actually have very good loot for the difficulty as a result, as you've often complained about. Assuming they are aware of this as well, perhaps they make the maps at the difficulties they do to challenge their friends in the same level range? The_Wall and Tundra were the only ones of those where the difficulty level was predetermined.

Also half of those don't have uniques either.

put the phoenix armor (or an item of comparable value) in the aluhandra2 final chest.

OMG your first suggestion in this thread! Even if I had to nix half the sentence to make it one. Fine. Done. Dun think L3ft_Turn is gonna complain at this point. It's a shame that you think the map isn't good enough for 3-7 epics, some potions, and the latest charm to be enough to bribe them to play it, but I'm willing to bait them away from maps with story and voice acting in them, I suppose.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Half of which I populated, so thanks?

You keep saying this and I do not believe you. When we were talking in DM you said you "populated aluhandra" but now, in this thread, you claim to "partially" populate aluhandra, which is quite a bit of a back pedal.. So what parts of Aluhandra did you "partially" do?

Aluhandra is essentially a two directional gauntlet. It looks nice though.

You are functionally retarded. You don't understand anything about game design.

it's a sad state of affairs if you're just making your maps harder for better loot

It's a sad state of affairs when mappers design maps so they actually get played? Who is responsible for such a state of affairs?

Kroush is great, yes. Though it's still a hub of gauntlets

How does a single map qualify as a 'hub of guantlets'?