Farming between helena and deralia

[FER]

maybe once every player in the server dies once to him, the boss regens, and so on

Maybe a revive spell would be neat (like in sveencoop)

 

[Thothie]

maybe once every player in the server dies once to him, the boss regens, and so on

Maybe a revive spell would be neat (like in sveencoop)

That'd help too. Trickier to setup. It'd have to be on the GM so people didn't start doing things like reconnecting everytime they died to a boss to avoid it. Maybe a 50% regen for killing all the players would be kinder though - or on a script-by-script basis. I think with, Maldora, for instance, it is inevitable that he'll eventually kill everyone once.

 

[Xeropace]

Exploitable - Have one person (Probably an AFKer, or spare character, or just a noob) stay out of the boss arena.

 

[Shurik3n]

Doubling the death penalty isn't going to do much when tons of people are walking around in AoBs now, if anything it would just widen the gap between high and mid level players.

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

Doubling the death penalty isn't going to do much when tons of people are walking around in AoBs now, if anything it would just widen the gap between high and mid level players.

Tons of people have AoBs now? This is new.

 

[Thothie]

Exploitable - Have one person (Probably an AFKer, or spare character, or just a noob) stay out of the boss arena.

True, although I was thinking, in addition. Plus I've been considering adding an AFK kicker.

Doubling the death penalty isn't going to do much when tons of people are walking around in AoBs now, if anything it would just widen the gap between high and mid level players.

True for the higher level characters. But this is more about stopping low level characters from repeatedly suiciding on high level bosses in an effort to peck them to death.

There's also the penalty, that unless you have a crystal of relocation setup inside the boss chamber, the boss has more time to regen.

So, with that I'm looking at:
• Removing the regen on kill entirely (for bosses)
• Reduce regen to x1 player's maxhp for others (more intuitive anyways)
• Doubling the death penalty
• Giving all monsters flagged as boss a 10%hp current hp minute regen rate*
• Healing boss monsters by 25%-100% each time they slay all the players on the server (will vary by script, default 50%)

* I went with current hp, so you'd be less likely to get that effect of "ZOMG he was so close to dead, and we left him alone for like twee seconds, I swearz!" effect. It means you have to hit the boss hard and fast early on, but as he wears down, his regen becomes less effective. Also I can make that adjustable. I may make it 5% for bosses that rely more on being bags-o-hp, for instance.

 

[Shurik3n]

Doubling the death penalty isn't going to do much when tons of people are walking around in AoBs now, if anything it would just widen the gap between high and mid level players.

Tons of people have AoBs now? This is new.

Perhaps a bit of an exaggeration, but so what? My point remains valid. There is a relatively large number of people (mostly high level) with AoB and doubling the death penalty would, realistically, only affect people without it (lower-mid levels). Which would in turn widen the level gap.

 

[Thothie]

Meh... Hmm... Any other ideas to discourage suicidal tendencies without handing out Pepsi’s?

 

[Xeropace]

Hmm this is a crazy idea but... How about no regen at all, yet the boss has a time limit ?

 

[subenji99]

Although this would either be on a per-boss basis or would require a large rethink of all bosses in the game, some sort of penalty debuff to players if they are killed by a boss may help. Something like a 10% Current Max HP decrease for 10 Mins, which would stack on multiple deaths by the boss. (current, as in if you had 500 HP the first death would reduce you to 450 HP, but next time would reduce you to 405 HP, etc) The benefit here also would be that it scales with player level too. However bosses like Atholo would need a total rethink.

Of course, I'm sure anyone could think of other penalties instead.

 

[Thothie]

I could start making your armor decay each time you die... >_>

[/ducks burst of flames]

 

[Durak]

I'll start out by saying that I do remember when bosses healed full per death and I'm not new .

I remember around the time of snow everyone either had top notch equipment and ran it for everyone to get GiBs (which I'm sure is how they got around as all weapons do). I don't recall any of the non-highest level players ever beating it as a group. It was always with the use of walls to block the monsters (reavers) and spamming lit storm. Well, and later orion. The boss isn't so bad because of the nice big space you have to work with to use roles as a party. You can have one guy tanking and stunning and switch off as well as someone casting lit storm/using arrows (and now bolts). I still think it's a good boss room even if you may think that it's easy because you don't have hit everyone elemental attacks that stop you from healing or tornados that hit for 200dmg/s. I don't remember anyone beating it with pfks.

As for the stun resistance, it's not such a huge thing on foutpost or some maps but in some maps you get repeatedly stunned/frozen. It's as if the script is triggered to leap and stun you again the moment you're unstunned (Boars ). I'm not saying parts like the start of snow are impossible but it CONSIDERABLY makes you stronger with 70% resistance to it. Obviously this should be the case because it's a high level item but my point is that on maps like the_keep it can be a real bitch to be stunned repeatedly and then the little damage you did heals the monster.

I think my idea stems from the fact that I believe you should be able to grind down bosses with effort. As Shurik3n said, and everyone knows, equipment spreads like the plague once someone is good enough to farm it. Coincidentally, this occurs right after they get the new equipment. Now, the view I see of the game is that it shouldn't be so much of stopping high level players from getting the best equipment. No one stops level 99s in diablo 2 from farming to get the best eq. If I'm playing on battlenet with my friend, my map difficulty/chance of finding items doesn't depend on how many of them are going around. The den of evil doesn't require me to have a grandfather to beat just because someone else has it and might use it to farm the den of evil. This ties in to my spiel about FN but it's simply my opinion. I know you said that you don't want to work on a singleplayer mod, and that you might later, but making a game multiplayer simply means being able to play with more people (friends). It doesn't necessarily mean making an artificial ladder system that you can't raise up on without being better than the other people (this analogy is supposed to be getting better eq than others so you have a chance to beat the new maps as they're structured for you).

I'd like to play the game without begging for items. If I can't play without having three of my friends and a guy on the internet (who only uses orion to get the highest points and kills all the monsters so we can't do anything) then the game is really lacking in being...playable.

 

[FER]

Well, this mod tries to be a MMORPG, you are supposed to play with some one else.

There are amzing items that are easily attainable and work as good as mid-high level items (PSB, great axe, clarians mace, Ice Blade,etc)

I don't recall any of the non-highest level players ever beating it as a group

Too bad, because thats how its supposed to be. Even among high levels, bad teamwork leads to the battle lasting 1 hour.

I don't remember anyone beating it with pfks.

Used to be the best dagger, some used it

it was always with the use of walls to block the monsters (reavers) and spamming lit storm

have you ever tought of luring them one by one? also if you noticed, Reavers dont have much (if any) defense at all, so weapons like great axe will deal 400 damage charged and 200 uncharged

I know you said that you don't want to work on a singleplayer mod

He said he would someday try and add a singleplayer mode

 

[Thothie]

I remember around the time of snow everyone either had top notch equipment and ran it for everyone to get GiBs (which I'm sure is how they got around as all weapons do). I don't recall any of the non-highest level players ever beating it as a group.

I can rest my case on that statement right there.

The Ice Queen was the meanest biatch in the game at the time, by far. She was a royal pain in the ass to beat. Only the very highest level groups could defeat her. That was the intent – that is always the intent when we introduce a new “meanest biatch in the game”. We didn’t have anything meaner than a Mace of Calrian to face her with.

Guess what? Now she’s so has-been she’s being used as a fricken mini-boss on map rated 10 levels below the highest echelons of the game (presuming Aleyesu is rated level 30, and you consider the highest echelons to be 40+) – and when the meanest players come in there now, who used to have so much trouble with her, they thrash her to death in under three minutes.

The lower level guys are meaner than ever. Take an average level 20 from the modern game, send him back in time to 2005, and he’ll wipe the floor with any level 30 character of that same generation. (He’d wipe level 40’s too, but there’d be none.) Characters are more powerful than ever, regardless of level. Even the very low level characters have more and better abilities and more weapons to find. Everyone is progressing many times faster than ever before. Spawn chances for items are better than anyone ever dared dream (almost every rare was about 1 in 200 when I got here!). So don’t b*tch about a lack of items or a lack of power, or an abundance of more powerful beasties that your character ain’t yet ready to handle – because you’ll be ready to handle them faster than any one before you ever could have been before. Mark my words – even the full fledged Maldora will look like a mini-boss within the year.

As for the stun resistance, it's not such a huge thing on foutpost or some maps but in some maps you get repeatedly stunned/frozen. It's as if the script is triggered to leap and stun you again the moment you're unstunned (Boars ). I'm not saying parts like the start of snow are impossible but it CONSIDERABLY makes you stronger with 70% resistance to it. Obviously this should be the case because it's a high level item but my point is that on maps like the_keep it can be a real **** to be stunned repeatedly and then the little damage you did heals the monster.

That’s what other players are for – to cover you when yer ass gets stunned. ‘Sides, as ye pointed out, ms_snow has been dominated 50,000 times now. It’s not as if all the stunning has ever stopped anyone.

I’ve moved Stun to the elemental resistance system for MAR2008b full/APR2008a. So if it makes ye feel any better, if you do resist being stunned, you’ll remain resistant for 10 seconds afterwards, as with any element.

I think my idea stems from the fact that I believe you should be able to grind down bosses with effort. As Shurik3n said, and everyone knows, equipment spreads like the plague once someone is good enough to farm it. Coincidentally, this occurs right after they get the new equipment.

Coincidentally my ass. It’s cause all the high ups go “Oooo! A new weapon” – it’s the only reason most of these folks play, is to get some new God-like weapon. Sometimes it seems as though if I released a patch with 50 new maps, 100 new creatures, a solid story line, and no new weapons, the population of the game would drop to 0 the next day.

In anycase, this is among the reasons why we, against my better judgment, introduced level requirements (thank you, Evaan). Level requirements will probably expand as the game goes on. We’ll probably figure a way to make it work on armor, and bows, and then maybe, just maybe the twinking (that plagues EVERY MMORPG) will slow down a bit.

But of course the level gap (also a problem in every MMORPG, and already a major problem in MSC) will start to get worse. I suspect, eventually, we’ll need to introduce more n00bie servers. At the moment, judging by the populations, one seems to be enough, but I suspect I’ll be going around to the FN hosts who can host multiple servers and asking for their help hosting more in the near future.

There will be an absolute level cap to prevent it from getting beyond control (there'll have to be, as many of the systems will break beyond level 60). That cap will likely be 60, and I'll try to make it a solid level wall, rather than just an issue of impracticality, to make it clear, and to stop having to deal with the meanest players in the game b*tching about the fact that they are leveling too slow, as they do now.

 

[Thothie]

Double post to prevent the TL;DR effect.

I want some input from people who hate bosses. Specifically J-M.

I'd like to see if you had any ideas, however much you may object to the concept, to cut down on n00bs attacking bosses beyond their level, while at the same time, encouraging teamwork against such creatures. Since as Shurik3n pointed out, the increased XP loss is a minimal threat under the new system.

I r open to ideas on the subject.

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

Double post to prevent the TL;DR effect.

I want some input from people who hate bosses. Specifically J-M.

I'd like to see if you had any ideas, however much you may object to the concept, to cut down on n00bs attacking bosses beyond their level, while at the same time, encouraging teamwork against such creatures. Since as Shurik3n pointed out, the increased XP loss is a minimal threat under the new system.

I r open to ideas on the subject.

It's this easy: contrary to what some people (*cough*The Man In Black*cough*) may think, I do enjoy a challenge.

The problem is, MS: C bosses aren't challenging at all; they're just downright annoying.
The constant "LOL U GOT STUND" and "LIGHTNING SLAP XD" from the ice reaver patriarch and Ji'Azolt respectively are just downright offensive.

First thing that pops into my mind is some huge boss that has a weak spot on its back (lawl stolen from Halo). This boss is so huge that you have to climb up some elevation to be able to jump on top of him, to hit his weak spot. Of course the boss shoots all sorts of nasty projectiles at you (but not the tedious lame ass lightning drunkify garbage bull shit) and to prevent the "backstabber" from dying, the other players must distract the boss by hitting its legs (doing 0 damage). Once the weak spot of the boss has been hit, all the elevated areas temporarily vanish.
Concept semi-copied from the Opposing Force final boss.

Second thing that pops into my mind: make a boss that can only be harmed when four people are attacking him simultaneously with an elemental fire weapon (or ice, whatever you want).

Third thing that pops into my mind is (this might be very tricky to pull off) an intelligent boss who knows when he's outmatched/in danger. Whenever somebody with the (horribly overpowered /satire) dark sword runs toward said boss, he teleports away. Or when the boss gets surrounded, he teleports away. But when the boss sees one, or maybe two, single player(s), he charges them.
Of course this boss shouldn't go teleport-happy like Runegahr. The amount of times Runegahr teleports away from you in five minutes pretty much equals the amount of times I have posted in these boards.

 

[Thothie]

Eh, I didn't ask what ye hated about bosses. (This I am abundantly clear on)

I asked if you had any ideas to prevent n00bs from throwing themselves into them like moths to flames without realizing that maybe they shouldn't be doing that yet, while at the same time, encouraging teamwork.

I need something that universally could be applied to all existing bosses, with relative ease.

ito. If you could add something to this list, what would it be?

• Removing the regen on kill entirely (for bosses)
• Reduce regen to x1 player's maxhp for others (more intuitive anyways)
• Doubling the death penalty
• Giving all monsters flagged as boss a 10%hp current hp minute regen rate*
• Healing boss monsters by 25%-100% each time they slay all the players on the server (will vary by script, default 50%)

I would like n00bs to get to the "omfg f*ck this" point sooner, rather than later. At the same time, I don't want a vet getting angry when some n00b walks into the room, and I want to make it clearer, that power equal to least four players of the boss's level should be present, intuitively.

 

[FER]

How about after a certain amount of hits the boss staggers for a moment? Meaning that more players=boss staggering quicklier

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

Hmm... I somehow thought you wanted me to give you boss ideas (I actually gave 3 though ).

Add to that list... only thing I can think of right now is:
- If the boss kills somebody, he gets an extra super strong minion in the boss room - the soul of the fallen player turns into some evil rapist ghoul or something.
Ninja-edit: this super strong minion should have a priority target: the player who caused him to spawn
This would surely get noobs out of bossrooms. No use entering a room when there's a monster minion that will instantly target you because you decided to screw up.

I don't think you should remove regen-on-kill for bosses though; that would make everything way too easy.
However, I'd suggest removing the 10% HP/min regen. rate thing, because Atholo is already annoying enough with that crap.
Whoops, there I go again.

 

[Thothie]

How about after a certain amount of hits the boss staggers for a moment? Meaning that more players=boss staggering quicklier

Some of the dagger power ups and things like the Torkie blade attack so fast that it's nearly one hit per frame, which is the most the system can track.

 

[Thothie]

Hmm... I somehow thought you wanted me to give you boss ideas (I actually gave 3 though ).

Add to that list... only thing I can think of right now is:
- If the boss kills somebody, he gets an extra super strong minion in the boss room - the soul of the fallen player turns into some evil rapist ghoul or something.

I don't think you should remove regen-on-kill for bosses though; that would make everything way too easy.
However, I'd suggest removing the 10% HP/min regen. rate thing, because Atholo is already annoying enough with that crap.
Whoops, there I go again.

Well, see, the reason for doing away with the regen-on-kill is, that it often gets to the point, where having more players in a boss chamber is counter-productive to killing said boss. It puts out the lower level characters, as all they can do is feed the boss, and the higher level characters want to deal with the boss on their own.

It's not just the high/low level dichotomy either. It’s also casual players vs. mean and lean vets. Players of the same level often tell each other to stay out of boss chambers because they suck and are feeding them.

Needless to say, ghost minions of players would aggravate that situation rather than solve it.

Basically, we still want more players in the boss room to be a good thing – to encourage team work, or at the very least, mass participation. So don’t want to penalize people for working together, and encourage folks waiting around for someone to farm for them.

But we also don't want to allow bosses to be pecked to death by players who are willing to just die repeatedly at their hands.

Passive regen handles those requirements better than regen on kill.

Therefore, if we were to add a penalty, it needs to apply only to the person who died - and not punish his teammates. If it were a reward, it could maybe go the other way, but I've no idea what such a reward would be.

 

[Durak]

I remember around the time of snow everyone either had top notch equipment and ran it for everyone to get GiBs (which I'm sure is how they got around as all weapons do). I don't recall any of the non-highest level players ever beating it as a group.

..The Ice Queen was the meanest biatch in the game at the time, by far. She was a royal pain in the ass to beat...

That's my point. The game lacks a steady progression. You say that the level 20s are meaner than ever and I think that's simply because the higher level people are giving them equipment they shouldn't have yet. I would like the game to be adventurable in that you can progress through it while playing many maps and have a chance. You shouldn't have to have level 40 people give you progressively better items to beat maps. Personally, I think that people would enjoy playing as an adventurer more than a begger. I know the appeal is always to make new maps and make them harder with better eq (logic: new content brings new players, old players like new stuff that's hard for them, mappers like newest best stuff on their map) but my point was that the difference is too great at these stages because of the elemental/new systems that were added.

That’s what other players are for – to cover you when yer ass gets stunned. ‘Sides, as ye pointed out, ms_snow has been dominated 50,000 times now. It’s not as if all the stunning has ever stopped anyone.

I’ve moved Stun to the elemental resistance system for MAR2008b full/APR2008a. So if it makes ye feel any better, if you do resist being stunned, you’ll remain resistant for 10 seconds afterwards, as with any element.

That's a good point, that is what other players are for. Saying that ms_snow has been dominated and that the things on the map must be well balanced isn't the point. My view of the reason it's dominated is because of the equipment they're not supposed to have yet but that's not what I wanted to address in this quote. The stun change sounds awesome, that's the kind of thing I was looking for. I'm not sure what the roll chances are for resisting stun but maybe some lower level stun resistance eq as a tradeoff for better armor eq (say sir geric gave 10% stun resistance and 300 armor and knights gave 450 armor for example).

Coincidentally my ass. It’s cause all the high ups go “Oooo! A new weapon” – it’s the only reason most of these folks play, is to get some new God-like weapon. Sometimes it seems as though if I released a patch with 50 new maps, 100 new creatures, a solid story line, and no new weapons, the population of the game would drop to 0 the next day.

I don't think that's the best logic. As I stated above somewhere, the argument goes as follows:
1)New content brings new players and new content is probably added more rapidly when they think that it'll be used (good eq/high level map)
2)The high level players are keeping the game alive
3)That high level players only want a better weapon to own faster with

1)Yes, new content brings new players. However, if only a fraction of the new players stick around your effort isn't optimized or appreciated as much as it should be. If contributers felt that new content could be added that would add value without being the newest best weapon then I think it would work better for the mod. I've given my thoughts on how I think it's unnecessarily hard for players are some stages. My solution would be to re-evaluate some of them and add in content that would help keep new players. A player that doesn't get past the third map won't have a chance of playing any of the high level maps you put so much work into/equipment you made.

2)Old players show the game is alive and show what to strive for. However, I think it would be better to invest in NEW players because that's how you will expand your playerbase. No one plays a game forever and you can't add content fast enough, even though you release amazing stuff every month, so you should try and make it so you can get more new players. I honestly believe the barriers I've mentioned (too hard at certain levels, drop rates, knowledge) stop a large number of people from playing. I do think there are a number of players to be had even with a HL1 mod.

In anycase, this is among the reasons why we, against my better judgment, introduced level requirements (thank you, Evaan). Level requirements will probably expand as the game goes on. We’ll probably figure a way to make it work on armor, and bows, and then maybe, just maybe the twinking (that plagues EVERY MMORPG) will slow down a bit.

But of course the level gap (also a problem in every MMORPG, and already a major problem in MSC) will start to get worse. I suspect, eventually, we’ll need to introduce more n00bie servers. At the moment, judging by the populations, one seems to be enough, but I suspect I’ll be going around to the FN hosts who can host multiple servers and asking for their help hosting more in the near future.

Level requirements from weapons aren't so bad if you keep them reasonable but I like making it so they don't have access to the best equipment. If there are five people on my server and a sixth joins who's the same level as us but has orion and kills everything then don't let him play with you as a level 50 person running around owning everything. They can play with higher level people in that case.

The level gap is only increasing when you have to keep adding new content in the form of better weapons/harder maps. I think the mining system and additions like that would help keep old players and not make the gap larger. If you could mine on some lower level maps then it might be like a MMORPG where you can have higher level people on your server to look up to as you still play on the same map. This game won't be like a MMORPG because of the way the world is structured in maps/servers/hl engine but maybe some more innovation in other departments could keep old players. Maybe a mentor system of some kind or something for higher level players to do while playing with lower level ones and giving them information. Solves two problems at once if you can widen the level gap where players can play with eachother.

I suppose that's another TL;DR.

Edit: This thread is already offtopic in two different directions so maybe it would be good to create a new thread about one of the many thoughts/ideas here.

Edit2: I also didn't mean to say in here that I don't want new maps and that only content working with low level maps should work. New things that work to make it so the level/eq gap is smaller. All of the recent new maps I've read about sound unreal . MS:C currently has an awesome team even if they aren't all...together. Should get everyone to use IRC.

 

[Thothie]

The game lacks a steady progression. You say that the level 20s are meaner than ever and I think that's simply because the higher level people are giving them equipment they shouldn't have yet.

While that contributes, it’s not entirely true. The level 20’s have more equipment available to them of their own level than ever before, and their abilities function better than ever before. A level 20 with level 20 equipment, going back to 2005, wills till wipe the floor with any character in that game.

The progression is very steady until you hit around level 30, IMO. Then it gets slow. This is to cut down on the level gap that you are complaining about, however. This is how almost all MMORPG’s work, first few levels go by in a breeze. Next few get harder, by the high end, you hit the grind.

I would like the game to be adventurable in that you can progress through it while playing many maps and have a chance. You shouldn't have to have level 40 people give you progressively better items to beat maps. Personally, I think that people would enjoy playing as an adventurer more than a begger.

You don’t have to, we already covered that. But this is just one of many common plagues of the MMORPG genre. The only way around it are level requirements (which for most stuff, we have, and we’ll likely have more in the future).

I know the appeal is always to make new maps and make them harder with better eq (logic: new content brings new players, old players like new stuff that's hard for them, mappers like newest best stuff on their map) but my point was that the difference is too great at these stages because of the elemental/new systems that were added.

There are plenty of new mid and low level maps as well in the past few months. Indeed, quite a bit more than high level maps (well, if you count Lodagond as one map, otherwise we break even). The current world as a whole has MANY more low and mid level maps than high.

There are mid level element resist items that offer 75% protection. It is also possible to find element resist potions in mid level dungeons ranging from 50% to 100% (note that these stack with said items now). It’s true there are no low level elemental resistance items, but that’s kinda the point. Low level characters shouldn’t be trying to tango with elementals and grand wizards.

2)Old players show the game is alive and show what to strive for. However, I think it would be better to invest in NEW players because that's how you will expand your playerbase.

All we can do for new players is fix bugs and maintain newbie servers. The game gets easier for them with every revision, so they catch up with the l337s faster. The l337s are not getting it easier as quickly as they are, due to the leveling wall they have to face. This is lifting, but not as quickly as the low level players are getting new features and new stuffs. I can still get to level 20 in 6-8 hours of play. That took about 40 hours of play a year or two ago, when I got my primary [FN] char that high. If we ever re-vamp the spell system the low level players are going to have new spells falling on them like rain in Seattle.

If there are five people on my server and a sixth joins who's the same level as us but has orion

Didn’t I mention we were working on level req’s for bows?

The level gap is only increasing when you have to keep adding new content in the form of better weapons/harder maps. I think the mining system and additions like that would help keep old players and not make the gap larger. If you could mine on some lower level maps then it might be like a MMORPG where you can have higher level people on your server to look up to as you still play on the same map.

The mining system is probably going to favor low to mid level characters for the most part, tis true – but these things take time. I agree that the high end equipment makes the level gap grow faster, but I have, as the high end people keep complaining, made most of the new high end weapons on par with the previous ones, just fancier looking, in an effort to slow that down. The intent, however, is eventually to raise the level cap… I *might* stop it at 50, instead of 60, but one way or the other, a lot of what yer going on about is only going to get worse.

 

[Durak]

The game lacks a steady progression. You say that the level 20s are meaner than ever and I think that's simply because the higher level people are giving them equipment they shouldn't have yet.

While that contributes, it’s not entirely true. The level 20’s have more equipment available to them of their own level than ever before, and their abilities function better than ever before. A level 20 with level 20 equipment, going back to 2005, wills till wipe the floor with any character in that game.

I agree that there are more low level equip items, like blade of affliction or snakeskin armor, but most of them aren't obtainable. They're all on the newer harder maps. Granted, not as far in as the boss but a newer player isn't going to be able to get those items that are meant for them. It isn't as impossible to get them as the "wall" I keep trying to describe my point of view of and even with all of these lower level eq you get stuck since none of them compare to the stage after.

The progression is very steady until you hit around level 30, IMO. Then it gets slow. This is to cut down on the level gap that you are complaining about, however. This is how almost all MMORPG’s work, first few levels go by in a breeze. Next few get harder, by the high end, you hit the grind.

I think it gets slow once you hit 30 because of the gap in weapon strength/map difficulty. I still stand by my jump in snow/the_keep weapons even though the newest weapons are balanced well in line. I was originally arguing about that gap as between medium and high end not high and higher end. Most MMORPGs work in that you grind for the entire game .

I would like the game to be adventurable in that you can progress through it while playing many maps and have a chance. You shouldn't have to have level 40 people give you progressively better items to beat maps. Personally, I think that people would enjoy playing as an adventurer more than a begger.

You don’t have to, we already covered that. But this is just one of many common plagues of the MMORPG genre. The only way around it are level requirements (which for most stuff, we have, and we’ll likely have more in the future).

If you have the level requirement too high then you won't be able to use an item when you find it after completing a map. If at a lower level than that the twinked char will always be using it before the others have it. It's not really a solution to twinked chars (not that there is one) so the trick is simply to leave twinks to play their own game. On MMORPGs if someone has all the best eq you just don't play with them, that's the solution.

There are plenty of new mid and low level maps as well in the past few months. Indeed, quite a bit more than high level maps (well, if you count Lodagond as one map, otherwise we break even). The current world as a whole has MANY more low and mid level maps than high./quote]

From memory, the recent low level maps are: chapel, forest, ara and the high level are: b_castle, lostcaverns, lodagond 1-4, cleicert, wicardoven, bloodrose (fits in both categories really but more med-hard), and rickler's (aleyesu?). The new low level maps also seem to be generally shorter than the hard ones. I'm not saying they aren't good but I think my statement still holds. I do like the number of low level maps in MS but the general progression between them is completely different. Since there are so many the level gap between them is small and they're mostly older so there aren't any of the new game breaking things in them. I think this is actually worse than I make it out to be because the resist pots and those newer low level things I haven't had gotten to try were probably added on them. However, with the "low" item limit you can't horde up the pots and they probably seem useless at low levels. I can see new players figuring they aren't useful and instead taking things to sell then transitioning to the elemental weapon+no resist pots realm.

There are mid level element resist items that offer 75% protection. It is also possible to find element resist potions in mid level dungeons ranging from 50% to 100% (note that these stack with said items now). It’s true there are no low level elemental resistance items, but that’s kinda the point. Low level characters shouldn’t be trying to tango with elementals and grand wizards.

Makes sense, and again I haven't really used resist pots, but there is no way to get the resist equipment before the boss that kills you instantly and heals. I don't like the system because you either got lucky enough to find the pots and figure out what they do or you die to any of the three maps at your range over and over and quit. Then you've got the people with the eq that makes you invincible to it from places you shouldn't be at yet. There's no apparent way to get past this point in the game as people expect to be able to fight things at their level range.

In MMORPGs you grind against monsters to fight against harder ones. There are no big jumps in difficulty. In this you go from orcs and spiders into monsters that use a host of different special attacks on you that stop you from doing anything, repeatedly. You figure you need some better equipment to get by it or some more training because that's how MMORPGs work. Neither of these end up helping you because there's no town that sells you resistance eq and training does nothing against it. MS really isn't like an MMORPG.

An idea might to be to sell useful potions for high prices after the gold reset so at least people know options exist. Maybe make some lower resist pots that last longer and sell them for lower level chars (except with stacking I can see high levels buying one of each type and using them all at once for invincibility...). There is a huge gap even now with the people that have stability/lit/phoenix vs everyone else. The effects of the elements are so large and there's no increments against it.

2)Old players show the game is alive and show what to strive for. However, I think it would be better to invest in NEW players because that's how you will expand your playerbase.

All we can do for new players is fix bugs and maintain newbie servers. The game gets easier for them with every revision, so they catch up with the l337s faster. The l337s are not getting it easier as quickly as they are, due to the leveling wall they have to face. This is lifting, but not as quickly as the low level players are getting new features and new stuffs. I can still get to level 20 in 6-8 hours of play. That took about 40 hours of play a year or two ago, when I got my primary [FN] char that high. If we ever re-vamp the spell system the low level players are going to have new spells falling on them like rain in Seattle.

Newbies have lots more options now at lower levels but get frustrated and quit when they hit the resistances/super bosses. Levels aren't nearly as important as equipment. The tradeoff of 100hp for a stability helm

If there are five people on my server and a sixth joins who's the same level as us but has orion

Didn’t I mention we were working on level req’s for bows?

I didn't hear that but it sounds good. It doesn't make a difference that being level 30 with a GiB vs level 30 with an orion is incomparable. Orion kills ten things at once from a range and affects every monster type (I think? More versatile in damage type than GiB regardless), that's assuming you managed to get a GiB anyway.

The mining system is probably going to favor low to mid level characters for the most part, tis true – but these things take time. I agree that the high end equipment makes the level gap grow faster, but I have, as the high end people keep complaining, made most of the new high end weapons on par with the previous ones, just fancier looking, in an effort to slow that down. The intent, however, is eventually to raise the level cap… I *might* stop it at 50, instead of 60, but one way or the other, a lot of what yer going on about is only going to get worse.

There's only so much you can do. I think the biggest problem is the wall I believe exists and that the equipment right after is 100x better. Once you get to the equipment it plateaus and the newer stuff is just different/cool. It's not nearly as overpowered as the jump at keep/snow.

I didn't have as much time to make this post as nice as I would have liked so I may come back and edit it tomorrow since I'm off to work.

 

[Thothie]

I agree that there are more low level equip items, like blade of affliction or snakeskin armor, but most of them aren't obtainable.

Rune Blade of Affliction is NOT a low level item. It’s level req is 20, and it is found in… A very bad place.

Cobraskin armor is fairly easy to obtain, but you need a good crew. Firelizard skin is about as common.

There's only so much you can do. I think the biggest problem is the wall I believe exists and that the equipment right after is 100x better. Once you get to the equipment it plateaus and the newer stuff is just different/cool. It's not nearly as overpowered as the jump at keep/snow

Keep and snow are about the same level. I’m curious as to where this level jump is, in your opinion.