FEB2008b / MSC 1.11 Bug Reports

[FER]

We have torkalath blade for fast swinging anyway

 

[HumanSteak]

No more darksword charging? We don't need rapid and crappy damaging weapons... I like DS a lot as it is because it makes people have other strategies than "HAI LET'S SURROUND TEH BOSS AND RAEP HIM!!1".
It is good because it's one of the rare weapons that aren't meant for weak monsters like tork and rune axe, we don't need another good vs.weak stuff weapon...
Maybe I misunderstood and you meant it will still charge, but when we release it gives many hits instead of one uber hit. That might be not so bad if the hits are VERY rapid and that damage is about the same... PLEASE DON'T NERF THE DARKSWORD!!

 

[Xeropace]

The dark sword is the only one of it's kind, and it actually makes me useful >_> Please don't scrap it, replace it with something just as good

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

Doubtful.

Thothie. Don't nerf the dark sword.

You seem to enjoy nerfing good/useful items, and almost every item that was once good/useful, is now destroyed.
Here is a list of examples:

Greater Ice Blade: Now requires 10 mana to do the charge (ice encase) attack, in the past it never required any mana at all.

Torkalath Blade: You (or at least someone, definitely) raised the hit roll, so it misses more often.

Demon Claws: These can now miss and drain your mana. This is quite unacceptable, because it's already hard enough to land hits with:

• Sh*t hitboxes
• Lag, something not uncommon in this game

Bone Blade: I once soloed an ice reaver with a bone blade, when the weapon was first released. I didn't use any shield at all, nor magic, nor did I retreat. It was just the reaver versus me and my bone blade, toe-to-toe. That's how good it was, before you decided to lower the HP it gives you.

Golden Axe: For some odd reason, you have to let it break, so people have to do the most tedious thing ever (get a near-unfindable item and acquire 110 000 gold).

Lightning Rod: The third charge used to auto-target, but that luxury has been taken from us.

Lightning Storm: Used to do loads of damage, but now it's hard to hit. I don't know why, but I'll just keep it to "you screwed it up".

Blizzard: Pretty much the same story as with the lightning storm, but the blizzard damage is even crappier compared to what it once was.

Armor of the Phoenix: First you nerf the amount of HP this armor gives you when you're being attacked by fire monsters, then you nerf it fully and change it so that it gives you mana, and, from what I can tell, the phoenix armor now gives less mana than ever. Explain me why I get 0 MP (75% of the time) and 1 MP (25% of the time) if I'm on fire, caused by an animated armor of fire? That's rediculously low. If I wasn't wearing phoenix armor, I'd get twenty or so fire damage every time.

And I didn't even mention the countless spawn chances (location-wise and spawn-percentage-wise) and XP values you nerfed.



You'll probably find excuses for all of those, but basically this is what it's all about:
Do not nerf the dark sword.
I would really hate it if you nerfed the last truly useful weapon this game has.

 

[FER]

Whoa, wait, I have to disagree about bone blade, It regenerated ALOT and that practically made you invincible. If we still have that much health regen+ the new rapid attack, the weapon would be a joke (beside we still have to see how much Blooddrinker will regen)

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

Fine, disagree.
Done?
Back to the dark sword, which is this [] close to complete destruction.

 

[Thothie]

BTW - when you were testing the DS - did you have both your server and client patched? It maybe an argument between the server and client as to the type of registered attacks.

I would really hate it if you nerfed the last truly useful weapon this game has.

That is not helping your case, as I translate that as "This is the ultimate weapon in this game" - and well, it ain't supposed to be.

But I'm not putting up with one weapon screwing all the clients - I'd axe the weapon entirely before I let it do that.

 

[HumanSteak]

Darksword is not the ultimate weapon, it's just fun to use and good. And besides, while you charge, you would have time to deal even more damage with normal~first charge attacks (that are even lower than an ice blade mind you), so it's not overpowered either.
I think he meant that weapon was unique for the fun part. The only weapon that is not just mindless "hack n' slash".
Like every other weapons in the game...

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

I would really hate it if you nerfed the last truly useful weapon this game has.

That is not helping your case, as I translate that as "This is the ultimate weapon in this game" - and well, it ain't supposed to be.

You don't seem to have a ****ing clue how this game plays out (example below) and that's why you say stupid crap like this. Runegahr is hard enough with six level 40+ players (all with swordsmanship 30+) dark swording him.
I vaguely remember you recently saying that people "shouldn't be able to reach level 40 anyway". Well guess what, there's multiple people above level 40. If you really believe in this level cap, then why is Outer Lodagond designed for level 40 to level 50 players?

How about you nerf all the bosses, too, while you're at it, to rebalance this game again.

Example why you don't have a ****ing clue how this game plays out: I remember me being in-game with you and some others in b_castle a few weeks ago. We made it to the (square, locked, gosh, that is unique) room before the boss chamber (also square, locked, such a cliché) and while we were fighting the various animated armors in there (that force you to loose control over your character every twenty seconds) you said something along these lines:
"Hmm, I had no idea it'd play out like this..."

You don't have a clue how hard this game can be, even with the dark sword which is "overpowered".

Edit: And basically what HumanSteak said. I can start charging my dark sword, take a shit, wash my hands, make a sandwich, eat the sandwich, come back, and it'll finally be fully charged. In the meantime, I could've done craploads of damage with other weapons.
Naturally I'm not going to say which weapons, because before I can say "stop" you will decide to nerf them again.

 

[Thothie]

Jeeze, I wasn't originally planning on nerfing the DS, but it sounds like maybe I should after all...

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

What, because of a personal vendetta against me (and maybe some others), the defender(s) of the last remaining few items in this game that are worth getting?

 

[Thothie]

Any item inspiring that much passion, short of an apostle weapon, is clearly too desireable, and the thought that six players with DS is the way to go against the meanest boss in the game suggests it is being seen as the ultimate weapon. Especially so, when server hosts are willing to screw their clients just to get the sixth charge. Plus J-M does tend to make a good guage as to when something's gotten out of hand.

Originally it was just I was sick of hearing complaints about it being bugged, and I wanted to setup some more predictable behavior for it, but now that I see all this clamor, I suppose more drastic measures were in order.

 

[HumanSteak]

We are just saying the darksword should not be nerfed :|. How could that convince you of nerfing it?
*Hopes that was a joke*
And it's inspiring passion because it is absolutely neccesary to stand a chance against some bosses, even for those who got past by far of your intended "level cap", and also because IT'S FUN TO USE. The fun part in any game should go first :?

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

Any item inspiring that much passion, short of an apostle weapon, is clearly too desireable,

Plus J-M does tend to make a good guage as to when something's gotten out of hand.

1) I did admit that the Orion bow was overpowered, but I'm not going to lie and say that the dark sword is overpowered.
2) OMG DON'T NERF THE SNAKE STAFF! THE SNAKE STAFF IS ****ING AWESOME! IT CAN SPAWN SNAKES WITH ROUGHLY TWO HP THAT DO NEAR-ZERO DAMAGE! THESE AWESOME SNAKES ALSO STAY IN-GAME FOR ABOUT TWENTY SECONDS! THE DAMAGE THE SNAKE STAFF DOES IS INSANE! IF I HAD ONE OF THOSE, I'D USE IT AGAINST RUNEGAHR ALL THE TIME AND SOLO HIM TWENTY TIMES PER MINUTE! I REALLY WANT ONE. BRB, TRADING POST TOPIC. I HOPE YOU DON'T NERF THIS.
3) The training hammer is amazingly overpowered. Please nerf it.
4) The hawk (that monstrous beast that flies over Edana) does way too much damage. He hit me for 500 through golden armor yesterday. Please fix. I find it quite irresponsible and sadistic that you put such a monster in the #1 newbie map.

and the thought that six players with DS is the way to go against the meanest boss in the game suggests it is being seen as the ultimate weapon.

1) Please excuse me for using a weapon that's in-game. I am terribly sorry.
2) No wait I'm not. Scratch that.
3) Use any form of magic against Runegahr? No. The server might crash and the tornado (OMG IT IS OVERPOWERED, NERF IT) will go invisible.
4) Use demon claws against Runegahr? Huh...? These things can still hit?
5) Use lightning weapons against Runegahr? Only assholes do that, because Runegahr is immune to lightning.
OMG SPOILER etc.
6) Use bow-like weapons against Runegahr? I would, if he had an actual hitbox.
7) Use a rusty short sword against Runegahr? Oh please.
8) I'm having difficulties finding a weapon that works against this (HOLY SHIT AMAZINGLY OVERPOWERED) boss. Maybe that's because all the weapons are being based on a level 40 cap now, or something very stupid along these lines?

Especially so, when server hosts are willing to screw their clients just to get the sixth charge.

Yes, the changes in FEB2008b were very dramatic, like, totally world-opening. Every server hoster should say "Fuck you, pig" to all dark sword wielders and update to FEB2008b.

Edit: My server is actually still running FEB2008b. I just downgraded my client to FEB2008a because I like my weapons tasty and useful. I know that I'm missing a whole world of possibilities (IMAGINE THE POSSIBILITITES!!!1! SOMEONE NERF THEM) right now, but I can't have good weapons and a new patch, can I now?

Originally it was just I was sick of hearing complaints about it being bugged, and I wanted to setup some more predictable behavior for it, but now that I see all this clamor, I suppose more drastic measures were in order.

Question: did you nerf it on purpose (break the final charge), hoping someone (me) would complain, finally giving you a reason to scrap the weapon?

 

[Orochi]

Thothie, I hate to say it, but speaking as someone who has tried to defend what you have done to the weapons (Ask J-M), I am finding it increasingly difficult to support a lot of the changes made. While I do not agree with J-M on some points, it seems that you are forcing players to plateau rather than advance, which is a bit of a backwards game mechanic. I can't say for certain what my position is on weapon nerfing, though. But it does seem that weapons get slowly weaker as bosses get more powerful. Granted, people like J-M can take down Atholo with ease, it seems. But there are other ways to increase difficulty without nerfing weapons, like giving bosses better AI; the capability to react to certain attacks. If you just load them up with loads of HP and cheap attacks, like Runeghar (His LS staggers us, why doesn't ours to monsters?) then of course people will gravitate to the most powerful weapon they can find.

 

[Thraxis]

While I usually am OK with balancing/nerfing (however you want to see it is fine), the Darksword in my eyes seems perfectly fine.

The ONE weapon in the game that does great damage has a MAJOR draw back in the amount of time it takes to charge it. Then, ontop of that, it has a chance to miss STILL after you've been sitting for about 15 - 20 seconds to charge it.

Not to mention that

A) You have an incredibly low chance to get it, considering you need X amount of people on Y (as in WHY is this map so friggen annoying) map, for Z chance to spawn. When the map, if people can't do the "alternative" route, has a pretty good chance to crash due to the limits of Half-Life enginge.

B) Said map is as mentioned, ANNOYING as ANYTHING. Not just in it's layout, but it's difficulty, and takes a pretty hefty amount of time invested in getting specific weapons to be able to even finish it.

C) The Dark Sword is the only weapon of it's kind. In that it's only majorly effective after it's massive time to charge it, IF it hits.

D) Other items which are AS hard to get, if not EASIER will be MORE effective after the balance/nerf for the major part of the game.

E) The darksword is not the "Ultimate" weapon. It is simply good for one thing. A considerable amount of damage, to ONE enemy, at ONE time. So for example, the darksword would pretty much suck horribly at beating most of
1) Old Helena
2) The Forgotten Outpost
3) B_Castle
4) Cleicert
5) Any other map I can think of off the top of my head.

Other compareable weapons are MUCH better at taking out the usual throng of monsters that gets flung at you. If a person would try to solo ANY map. I can almost gaurentee a person who has played the game for sometime and understands what an item is good for, would use the DS ONLY against monsters with 5K + HP. Hell, even then, if you had choice of all weapons with equal skill. The Thornbow with good arrows, Heavy Crossbow with good bolts, Demon claws w/ 300 - 400 mana, Golden axe (vs some monsters) at 30+ axe, Ice Hammer, etc. ALL do easily compareable, if not GREATER damage in the same time as the Darksword.

In my mind, the only thing that makes the darksword a "Good choice" (maybe the best in some circumstances) against some bosses, is the fact that you don't need much to maintain it. No arrows, no mana, no nonsense.

tl;dr version

The darksword is balanced as is. Other compareable weapons at an equal skill level, are better in 90% of circumstances.

Please don't make another item that takes a rediculous amount of time and effort to obtain, useless. You've already "fixed" it once, which was fine, people lived and still used it.

 

[Sabre]

The Darksword is, as everyone above said, fine as is. I think it actually epitomizes the "hit and run" tactics you are striving to achieve in the big muthaf*ckin axe field.

 

[The Man In Black]

I think the problem is that it is too good of a hit and run weapon. Yeah, it takes forever to charge, but so what? The charging process does not hinder movement, so while you're taking your time charging, you can be bhopping around the room, getting healed/ice shielded, or not even be in the room at all! Sure, you can do more damage with, say, GiB in the amount of time, but GiB requires constantly being in the monster's face.

 

[FER]

But isnt giving it rapid fire going to the other extreme? DS is a 1, you want it to be a 0, but you end up tuning it into a -1

 

[The Man In Black]

Who said anything about rapid fire

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

Who said anything about rapid fire

The nerf god, who else? Are you sure you read all the replies? This 'selective reading' (only listening & accepting when you agree) stuff is getting tiresome.

 

[FER]

Doubtful. More likely take the opposite approach and give it a rapid attack, or some similar such that's already working on another weapon. It doesn't really have the proper pierce anim for its trick anyways. I don't want it to be a motivation to screw clients out of their votes and such, so I want something that'll be dependable and not have to f*ck with it anymore.

I know hes not 100% going to do that but its the only hint about the possible DS changes

 

[The Man In Black]

Who said anything about rapid fire

The nerf god, who else? Are you sure you read all the replies? This 'selective reading' (only listening & accepting when you agree) stuff is getting tiresome.

Take a chill pill, spanky. I'm sorry that I have a limited time before class to read walls of text, especially since I'm not entirely sure where the tizzy-fits start.

 

[J-M v2.5.5]

Well ****ing code me a better dark sword, you whiny prick :roll:

Edit: Wow,

I've read all arguments, agreeing on some points and not others.

 

[The Man In Black]

J-M, when was the last time you actually did something for this mod other than whine? Like I said, I ***THOUGHT*** that I had read all the posts. Sometimes I'm mistaken when I have only a few minutes.

Thothie intends to code a better dark sword, but you deem it to be a nerf.