Frostbow but it actually works

[MS:C community]

Yes, a global resistance cap would make a whole lot of the game unplayable because it is designed with super L337 OP players in mind! Obviously the NPCs populating these maps would need to be heavily nerfed, in every conceivable way (HP, attacks, specials and, as mentioned, resistances), and the entire player arsenal would have to be nerfed heavily in return, so as to accomodate weaker enemies.

These items that would become worthless would also have to be rebalanced, and the same can be said for the part of the game (e.g. maps) that become unplayable. Again, monumental task, but as far as I can tell, the only way out.

Edit #01: And yes, I definitely believe that capping resistances globally at 40% would fix the game, or at the very least significantly improve it, if accompanied by item/NPC rebalancing everywhere. Otherwise I wouldn't post it. Currently there is no cap! You can become immune to almost every single element, at around midgame, and you can do this all simultaneously! Holy shit!

Edit #02:

(Also seems last time I threatened to only let you have one resistance potion running at a time, there was mass rebellion.)

Obviously there was a mass rebellion because nerfs like this serve no purpose whatsoever unless they go hand-in-hand with nerfs to NPCs. That's the whole point I'm trying to make. The game is poorly balanced both ways.

 

[Thothie]

...a whole lot of the game would become unplayable because it is designed with super L337 OP players in mind!

It's really not... Hence the under-a-minute end bosses. Generally, if I can't do it, with fast footwork and modicum of typical expendables, I nerf the encounter until I can, and I'm not very good - the exception is if the mapper says his play testers were fine (or tormented to within his tolerance), as has been the case for some of the underworld, where I've often been unable to handle some encounters with cheats and potions. That green dragon, for instance, is the weakest of maybe two dozen iterations.

But yeah, if it means going back and re-writing a decade worth of scripts and maps, it's not a real suggestion. New game, requires a new game. Meanwhile, harder areas requiring more items, is just par for the course. Again, I threatened to bring it down to one active resistance potion at a time, but folks just claimed it'd make the game unplayable (which, for some of these newer maps, in my experience, it has been - though not older revamped ones like Lodagond). You seem to be claiming the same for a global 40% cap, without a related global rewrite.

 

[MS:C community]

It's really not... Hence the under-a-minute end bosses.

Again, pushover bosses when using potions, borderline impossible bosses when not using potions (or completely, straight-up impossible in the case of Ihotohr). There is no middle ground.

Surely you're not spending hours, days or even weeks on cool new bosses with inventive new attacks, only to see:

1. Them get wiped out instantly (potions)
2. Players complain about frustrating difficulty, only to give up (no potions)

?

 

[Thothie]

A) Them get wiped out instantly (potions)
B) Players complain about frustrating difficulty, only to give up (no potions)

Well, I only ever see "A", when there's a group of the l337est players around are on, in which case, I'm fine with that, to a degree (just leaves me at a loss as to what to do with them, beyond future plans for "vote difficulty" and the like). "B" is as intended, for later bosses, as if you come lacking stuff to pwn with, you get pwned. Though I do wish we had more ways to make it clear you have to go gather more stuff to throw at them, and yeah, the AoB is becoming the problem I feared it would be, as it apparently is making that unintuitive or unnecessary. That is why we added the boss resistance thing though - you can only fail so many times, but sometimes it seems it's not enough, so maybe we need to apply something similar globally.

Ihotor's impossible to solo, as intended, but I've rarely seen a group of like leveled players have more issues than intended with him (maybe three-four deaths), or had trouble getting by him myself with fake targets for him to grab and a high level test character with maybe one major resistance potion. Not that I haven't been nerfing him over time anyways, but the primary complaint seems to be he can't be solo'd.

There are some other encounters that are straight up insane in my opinion, but the mapper insists are fine as is. But, if you have to down a half dozen potions to make them viable, and they're making their decisions based on that... I've only run into such encounters in a handful of the newer maps (or when the autoadjuster was outta whack), so... Rather than re-writing the whole game, seems it'd be simpler to nerf those few encounters and only allow one active potion at a time.

 

[Monika's_BFFEx0256]

Thothie is busy and his time is valuable.

I'm going to stop posting suggestions and flaming until the patch comes out.

So should you.

You're about 4 years late to this line of logic.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

I agree with JMs suggestions in respect to how things SHOULD have been done a long time ago, but it's likely not possible to go back and fix everything in such a drastic way.

So the late game content requires "the holy trinity" (and then some, judging by the videos), as one would expect. Any suggestion here?

Yeah, mellow out future monsters so that the majority of future content doesn't require that stuff and then make the potions rarer, so players actually have to make a strategic decision as to whether or not to use their precious potions. Right now potions are far from precious, but that's because they can't be because they are required for everything.

Here's another suggestion: Potion resistance that builds up over time. So if you constantly drink potions then your gpop would last for a smaller and smaller period of time. You would have to stop drinking potions for X amount of time (or maybe X amount of damage points or some other metric) in order to gradually lose your "immunity" to potions.

It's fine for GPoP to last as long as it does if the next time you use one it lasts a little less, and then a little less the next time, and so on until you have to chug them every few minutes to keep your buff.

You can also make potions expensive in addition to being rare.

Both of these suggestions force players to make decisions and it allows for a greater spectrum of monster difficulty. Sure, I could steam roll everything with potions, but if I do that there will be some kind of consequence - Therefore I won't be high on potions all the time, which means not EVERY SINGLE MONSTER needs to be so strong it's capable of countering someone who is high on potions.

Though, if anything, I'm thinking we need to nix AoB, and go back to mobs regaining all their health when they kill the last player who hit them, if repeated death is not making it clear they are doing something wrong.

Another idea would be to have armor of bravery continue to stop you from losing EXP but no longer stop you from losing gold. Then you could make another armor, "Armor of Greed", that caused you to stop losing gold upon death but you WOULD lose exp upon death. Again, this would force players into making strategic decisions.

If potions were both harder to get and/or expensive af, then gold would actually matter too.

but I don't see a single actual suggestion from you in this whole bible of text you've written, nor in the other dozens you've sent to my inbox. Just lots of complaints, and lots of "It should be done like this" rants, that involve redoing everything from the ground up, removing popular game functions that have been here for over fifteen years that the game can't work without, or complaining about fundamental aspects of MMO's.

I just gave you four creative suggestions in that very last message. Let me repeat them for you:

1) Access to a secret map for a reward in lieu of another OP item that backs us into a corner
2) tickets to a play at Deralia Theatre, in lieu of another OP item that backs us into a corner
3) access to a "movie scene map" in lieu of another OP item that backs us into a corner
4) triggering NPCs to play out a scene in game, in lieu of another OP item that backs us into a corner

But more importantly, I've never done any of the things you're accusing me of here. I haven't "removed popular game functions that have been here over fifteen years" by gauntlet flagging a handful of maps that I made. I haven't removed any mechanics from any existing maps, or prevented any future mappers from using said mechanics, so what you're saying doesnt even make sense.

These accusations are just a form of slippery logic you deliberately employ to avoid all of the legitimate points I'm making.

complaining about fundamental aspects of MMO's.

These are NOT fundamental aspects of MMO's no matter how many times you repeat that. The suggestions being given from a multitude of sources in this thread are fundamental aspects of most MMO's, however.

Again, pushover bosses when using potions, borderline impossible bosses when not using potions (or completely, straight-up impossible in the case of Ihotohr). There is no middle ground.

What about this is so hard to understand that it takes pages and pages of text, from multiple different people, to get it across? And it doesn't even appear to be getting across...

(just leaves me at a loss as to what to do with them, beyond future plans for "vote difficulty" and the like)

START MAKING STORY DRIVEN CONTENT! Make quests that take you on an interesting adventure throughout the game. We don't need more stuff to farm when the only thing to do in the entire game is farm stuff.

But, if you have to down a half dozen potions to make them viable, and they're making their decisions based on that..

I can say from first hand experience that this is exactly what mappers are doing when they are designing these encounters that you say you can't even get past with cheats and a maxed out test character.

The problem is so bad that I had given up entirely on any type of gameplay that involved "difficult" enemies, and I was just going to make all of my objectives time consuming from here on out, to make up for the fact that I have no choice but to make things easy now.

Ihotor's impossible to solo

lol ihotor has never been impossible to solo. Not even on the first day the wall was released. All you needed back then was... you guessed it... potions!

 

[Monika's_BFFEx0256]

All I see are actually good points, and every point is countered by an excuse or is just outright dismissed.


I've also tried to post this 20 times and it keeps giving me "server error" and fucking cooldowns to post again

 

[Kanta]

I've also tried to post this 20 times and it keeps giving me "server error" and fucking cooldowns to post again

You must be on some form of that potion-high cool down Oyster suggested.

 

[Age]

Yes, a global resistance cap would make a whole lot of the game unplayable because it is designed with super L337 OP players in mind! Obviously the NPCs populating these maps would need to be heavily nerfed, in every conceivable way (HP, attacks, specials and, as mentioned, resistances), and the entire player arsenal would have to be nerfed heavily in return, so as to accomodate weaker enemies.

The problem I gather Mr. Community is focusing on here is that MS:C's power creep evolution seems, for one reason or another, to have come in the form of an arbitrary numbers stacking minigame. As the resistances don't have any fluidity to their values such as ARPG's with gear that rolls randomized values for resistances that you're able to mix and match and a cap for each, instead MS:C has a few pieces of gear that grant set values of X resistance (or flat out immunity...) as well as potions for each element to take it even further, without limits. Because balance has to account for the existence of limitlesss resistance stacking, over time it turned into a creeping battle of map/encounter design and equipment design trying to one-up each other in a theoretically limitless race to the top.

The gameplay essentially boils down to a questionnaire for every encounter wherein you simply go down the list and check boxes (or otherwise just a binary yes/no) to whether you have this or that required thing to continue playing, and sure you could boil a lot of games down just as easily with this same line of thinking, MS:C is particularly egregious because the game is so clunky (for which blame can safely be shoved onto the engine) that every extraneous interaction you have to make whilst doing anything is one more added layer of frustration, which anybody still playing the game has simply gotten used to because there's no real alternative.

My most hated, eternal gripe and favorite example is ice shield, for which all gameplay stops the moment it breaks because it is so much a part of the balance of the game this far down the line that the only thing left to do is simply build it into the player. Ice shield I believe is at the heart of the statement Mr. Community is making when he says "it is designed with super L337 OP players in mind!"

 

[Thothie]

Yeah, mellow out future monsters so that the majority of future content doesn't require that stuff and then make the potions rarer, so players actually have to make a strategic decision as to whether or not to use their precious potions. Right now potions are far from precious, but that's because they can't be because they are required for everything.

Here's another suggestion: Potion resistance that builds up over time. So if you constantly drink potions then your gpop would last for a smaller and smaller period of time. You would have to stop drinking potions for X amount of time (or maybe X amount of damage points or some other metric) in order to gradually lose your "immunity" to potions.

It's fine for GPoP to last as long as it does if the next time you use one it lasts a little less, and then a little less the next time, and so on until you have to chug them every few minutes to keep your buff.

You can also make potions expensive in addition to being rare.

Both of these suggestions force players to make decisions and it allows for a greater spectrum of monster difficulty. Sure, I could steam roll everything with potions, but if I do that there will be some kind of consequence - Therefore I won't be high on potions all the time, which means not EVERY SINGLE MONSTER needs to be so strong it's capable of countering someone who is high on potions.

There's no way to make an item rare enough that some obsessive compulsive person bent on revenge won't farm the crap out of it and spread it around. As for expense, the only purchasable ones have a 1000 multiplier as it is, and a limited stock.

Now a cooldown on potions would be an idea, but it seems no more apt to be accepted than only allowing one active at at time (which would also be a lot easier).

Granted, I don't feel any of the bosses I've created require multiple potions per player, particularly if you have multiple players of that level present, as intended, but when folks start rainbowing and tossing on crazy multipliers, and telling me "it's fine", well, you know what happens when I tell a certain mapper something's not - any hopes of getting anything story related in tend to go out the window.

But, if you have to down a half dozen potions to make them viable, and they're making their decisions based on that..

I can say from first hand experience that this is exactly what mappers are doing when they are designing these encounters that you say you can't even get past with cheats and a maxed out test character.

Well, there's an obvious solution to that, at least. Like Community is saying, can't fix one end without fixing the other.

1) Access to a secret map for a reward in lieu of another OP item that backs us into a corner
2) tickets to a play at Deralia Theatre, in lieu of another OP item that backs us into a corner
3) access to a "movie scene map" in lieu of another OP item that backs us into a corner
4) triggering NPCs to play out a scene in game, in lieu of another OP item that backs us into a corner

I, don't think folks are going to be satisfied with plays at Deralia Theatre. But yes, gaining new equipment is rather core to the RPG process - it doesn't necessarily have to be OP in itself, but it does eventually have to be enough equipment to get you to the next tier. A helping of lore on the side is always nice, and would be very nice indeed, but is inadequate in and of itself. (Not that aesthetic, collector, or gag items aren't something we also toss in now and again, but ya can't live on em.)

START MAKING STORY DRIVEN CONTENT!

Think we covered the "would love to, lots planned, but can't, largely cuz of crap like this" end of this multiple times now.

 

[Monika's_BFFEx0256]

@Thothie maybe the people who play the game DO ACTUALLY KNOW what they want as rewards.

All I see are actually good points, and every point is countered by an excuse or is just outright dismissed.

 

[Thothie]

My most hated, eternal gripe and favorite example is ice shield, for which all gameplay stops the moment it breaks because it is so much a part of the balance of the game this far down the line that the only thing left to do is simply build it into the player. Ice shield I believe is at the heart of the statement Mr. Community is making when he says "it is designed with super L337 OP players in mind!"

I don't think that simple early timing mechanic is exactly designed for "l337 players", but yeah, like so many things in the game, it is a steeper stairstep than I'd normally like to see in a game, even if I like how it at least keeps you on your toes. Just integrating the resistance, like armor, isn't really a solution, as it'd render it superfluous - though some similar thing that you had to occasionally feed or upgrade, might be more viable. Stone skin was the replacement option for the dwarves, though it's not a whole lot better, and probably going to be harder to make visually intuitive.

I've also tried to post this 20 times and it keeps giving me "server error" and fucking cooldowns to post again

Yer not set to "discouraged" or anything... :\

@Thothie maybe the people who play the game DO ACTUALLY KNOW what they want as rewards.

Maybe they should change what they post around here then? Granted, if we did go that route (no more items, lore rewards only), we would have to make the level cap "forever 50", and tell a lot of mappers who want to take out "l337" players, to just stop. Even then, doesn't address most the issues of these endless rants, which slows any such efforts (stopping one such effort, right now).

Though some of the storyline does actually involve a few more items, but not a lot, and at least one is kind of a gimmick.

 

[zeus9860]

My main complaint about ihotohr is that he can overflow me with ease if i have around 50-60 items in my main. When the event hud is getting spammed with messages all the time, it seems to cause overflows, plus all the extra stuff like the screen effects and whatnot, all of this seems to take a massive impact on the stability of my character. If i use potions that add extra damage messages to the hud, it further increases the likelyhood of overflowing in battle with ihotohr. If i use fast hitting weapons while using demon blood for example, while also fighting ihotohr, it is likely to cause an overflow. There is just too much going on at the sametime that it causes instability. I can do the fight just fine with like less than 50 items on my main, or well, most of the time.

Other than this, there is no easy way to fix the problem, but something could still be done to prevent future maps to be as bad as the current meta of the game is.

"The fastest way i can think of to somewhat fix the problem down the road" suggestion:
Rebalance (effectiveness) all potions/consumables/armour and most of the "strong" weapons in the game right now, grab all the previous unique drops from unbalanced maps and place these items into town quests, forges or whatever you would like as long as it is accessible to newcomers. So people wouldn't be like "omfg, it is impossible to beat this map and get this item now." The rarity of potions doesn't need a nerf if their impact was to be minimal. They should instead be sold in towns too since they have a minimal impact to begin with. With this achieved, future maps could focus on a much cleaner playstyle comparable to the early levels of the game.
This would likely break most of the old content balance-wise, specially the most broken maps like the_wall and the maps created by Oyster in general (and some others). This might be a hard pill to swallow, but sacrifices have to be made along the way, and since there is no easy way to fix the issue, this is one of the few ways i can think of that should be doable in the not so distant future.

Some random brainstorming (probably nonsense, i'm no coder so i have no clue if good k?):
The only way i can think of to keep the old content "alive" after such a change, but am not sure if it is possible to achieve at all is to create two different realities, one for "old unbalanced content" and another for "new balanced content", something like flagging all the maps with 1 of the 2 labels, then the game fetches the info and adjusts your items to whatever "reality" you are playing. If you play old maps, the balanced flag is ignored and all the items are reverted back to the unbalanced state. If you play newer maps with the "balance" state in mind, all of the changes done to create balance with the items is activated. I'm not into coding, but is any of this possible at all? Essentially, what i am trying to suggest is that the game somehow knows if you are accessing unbalanced or balanced content and adjust the items to each version.

 

[Thothie]

The only way i can think of to keep the old content "alive" after such a change, but am not sure if it is possible to achieve at all is to create two different realities, one for "old unbalanced content" and another for "new balanced content", something like flagging all the maps with 1 of the 2 labels, then the game fetches the info and adjusts your items to whatever "reality" you are playing.

Well, wouldn't work with the sorta fundamental changes folks are demanding, which would still involve a decade worth of scripts and map changes, just maybe not all at once - but more than one game mode is possible, and one such has been on the "epic tasks" list long while. Obviously not possible under the current engine though.

But any suggestion that's going to take another decade, isn't a real suggestion, even if I like how you described it a lot better than the rants we've been getting.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

There's no way to make an item rare enough that some obsessive compulsive person bent on revenge won't farm the crap out of it and spread it around. As for expense, the only purchasable ones have a 1000 multiplier as it is, and a limited stock.

Yes there is. Make it so you can't hold more than X amount of any given type of potion. Not that I think this is going to be a real problem.

Granted, I don't feel any of the bosses I've created require multiple potions per player, particularly if you have multiple players of that level present, as intended, but when folks start rainbowing and tossing on crazy multipliers, and telling me "it's fine"

We aren't telling you "it's fine", we're telling you we have no choice.

well, you know what happens when I tell a certain mapper something's not - any hopes of getting anything story related in tend to go out the window.

You opted to throw out half a dozen maps and a handful of quest NPC's that told stories in those maps, all because you didn't like the gameplay. When it was explained to you why the gameplay had to be a certain way you responded with the exact same flippant dismissals you are being called out for in this thread. It's your fault and nobody elses that this game lacks story driven content. All anyone sees coming from you right now are excuses. Not only have you made 0 effort to create content like this yourself, but you actively interfere with others who step up and do the work for you.

And then you just flippantly dismiss everyone who says anything to the contrary.

Think we covered the "would love to, lots planned, but can't, largely cuz of crap like this" end of this multiple times now.

Out of all the lame excuses you have made in this thread, this is the lamest one yet.

But any suggestion that's going to take another decade, isn't a real suggestion

At the rate you've been moving over the last five years, that's every suggestion.

 

[Monika's_BFFEx0256]

I think you're picking and choosing what is and isn't worth responding to to make your points seem more valid.

It's like a disinterested and indifferent King hearing out his subjects only to appease them by letting them exhaust themselves by talking, when you wave them all off in a self-imposed self-important manner anyways.

 

[Thothie]

You opted to throw out half a dozen maps and a handful of quest NPC's that told stories in those maps, all because you didn't like the gameplay.

Did no such thing, their "stories" (more realistically, their fetch quests) are still there and ready to go, whenever. Just offered you an actual story with a world story goal, as an alternative.

We aren't telling you "it's fine", we're telling you we have no choice.

You have a choice. No one is demanding you balance your maps with l337 potion addicts in mind, but their case for not nerfing the potions is rather strong if you do, and then we have to introduce even more OP items, to help the folks that aren't so l337.

But if you wanna nerf your encounters, maybe we could minimize the outcry of only allowing one active potion at a time, or such.

Out of all the lame excuses you have made in this thread, this is the lamest one yet.

Well, it's true, I could just close the public forums, but I'm holding out hope for something constructive, I guess.

I think you're picking and choosing what is and isn't worth responding to to make your points seem more valid.

Meh, what would you like the tired old king to respond to that I missed? Seems I'm just addressing the same things, over and over again.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

I, don't think folks are going to be satisfied with plays at Deralia Theatre.

This shows how totally out of touch you are. There's no way this wouldn't instantly become one of the most beloved mechanics in the game.

You have a choice. No one is demanding you balance your maps with potion addicts in mind

You speak of "potion addicts" as if this wasn't the entirety of the player base. It's not just a handful of 1337 players drinking potions destroying the balance in maps. It's the fact that everyone has access to unlimited potions.


Your ONLY response to being criticized for putting unlimited potions in the game was "There's no way to make an item rare enough that some obsessive compulsive person bent on revenge won't farm the crap out of it and spread it around. "


So... because there's no way to make potions SO rare that even the most obsessive players couldn't farm them, then we should just make them drop in unlimited quantities for everyone?

What the fuck? Seriously, what on earth? I don't even know how to respond to "logic" like that.

and then we have to introduce even more OP items, to help the folks that aren't so l337.

NO YOU DON'T! why on earth would this be something you "have" to do? I cannot get a grip on your logic whatsoever, and clearly I am not alone.

Well, it's true, I could just close the public forums, but I'm holding out hope for something constructive, I guess.

I've now given six different ideas but apparently none of them are "constructive".

Meh, what would you like the tired old king to respond to that I missed? Seems I'm just addressing the same things, over and over again.

Have you considered that maybe you're the one who is wrong?

 

[Thothie]

You speak of "potion addicts" as if this wasn't the entirety of the player base. It's not just a handful of 1337 players drinking potions destroying the balance in maps. It's the fact that everyone has access to unlimited potions.

Most folks seem to take a whole lotta time to tear through your maps, with the average run time on the alpha running near 40 minutes, and they have access to unlimited nukes there.

Quick search on FN gives me 287 greater protection potions over ~11.6K characters, which makes them a lot rarer than Tomahawks, and most of them seem to be on mules.

But I take this to mean you aren't willing to aid in any sort of effort at change in that regard, and demand your encounters stay as they are? Then how do you suggest we nix the power creep battle you've been on about? Can't nerf the pots when the encounters require them as they are.

I've now given six different ideas but none of them are "constructive".

Have you considered that maybe you're the one who is wrong?

Lore only rewards is the only one I've gotten from you that hasn't already been suggested in some other form (such as nerf the pots), just in four parts (well, you mentioned secret maps - but that's recursion - what do you put on said secret maps?). Explained that it doesn't address the issue at hand, and freezes the game here in all other respects. Don't recall you explaining how that's wrong. Not saying we can't do it, mind, but I dun think it's gonna lead to any reduction in rants...

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Most folks seem to take a whole lotta time to tear through your maps, with the average run time on the alpha running near 40 minutes, and they have access to unlimited nukes there.

That's because they do not know where to go yet. If you know how to get to the end you can slog from Undercliffs all the way to the boss at Underforge in 20-30 minutes (with no overflows or crashing!). Of course, you wouldn't see everything that there is to see on every map, but that is WAI.

One of the best things about this method is that no matter how strong you are, it's still going to take you 20ish minutes or so to get from the start of the series to the end of it EVEN IF YOU RUSH. This is about the only way to prevent players from simply tearing through a series in 5 minutes as MSC Community has shown can be done, without just making the monsters enragingly strong.


Sure, you could code up some elaborate quest that accomplishes a similar goal, but that will take you years, and take time away from other things, whereas my initial plan is something mappers could pull off without you.

But I take this to mean you aren't willing to aid in any sort of effort at change in that regard, and demand your encounters stay as they are?

Not sure which encounters you are talking about, but I have nerfed quite a few of them. The worst encounters by far were in Rmines and Fmines, and both of those maps have been removed and turned into the much easier Undermines. Underpath, while not "nerfed", was changed so players dont HAVE to fight ogres at all if they don't want to (now they must unlock the multisource stopping ogres from spawning by killing a baby in the nest first), and if they choose not to fight them, the map fills with low-mid level monsters instead. In Undercliffs, I capped all of the level VI monsters at level III, and reduced the insane DOT damage from the black widow, and I made the "jumping" platforms in the boss accessible from all sides at all times.

The other maps haven't been released publicly yet, and they are all considerably easier than my earliest maps. Sometimes I feel like they are too easy, but I resist the urge to make them more difficult because I'm all too familiar with this trap.

Lore only rewards is the only one I've gotten from you, in four parts (well, you mentioned secret maps - but that's recursion - what do you put on said secret maps?). Explained that it doesn't address the issue at hand, and freezes the game here. Don't recall you explaining how that's wrong.

I also gave you potion cool downs, and making potions rarer, both of which you more or less dismissed as not viable simply because they don't perfectly solve the problem, even though they at least mitigate the problem.

But yeah I do think lore only rewards are a pretty good option.

(well, you mentioned secret maps - but that's recursion - what do you put on said secret maps?).

Well, in the case of a guantlet series like lodagond you can delay loot until the end. So you don't need to come up with loot for lodagond 1-3, you just need to put loot on the final map. However, if you could just vote straight to lodagond 4, then lodagond 1-3 would need their own special loot in order to be worth playing at all.

But you could also just put a cool hangout area. Maybe an ornate room in Hall of Deralia can't be accessed unless you complete an objective first, and then you can hang out in this room and listen to the music or whatever, as an example. The easter egg at the end of Underforge is a minor example. The shad palace secret room is a great example, minus the fact that you get thrown out of it if you die which isn't cool, nor does it make any sense.

 

[Kanta]

Most folks seem to take a whole lotta time to tear through your maps, with the average run time on the alpha running near 40 minutes, and they have access to unlimited nukes there.

To be fair, all of the new under- maps on the alpha use an extremely flawed spawning system that leaves maps damn near barren of mob to fight. So, excluding underforge I'm willing to bet most of those 40 minutes are spent wandering around, looking for enemies to kill.

Quick search on FN gives me than 287 greater protection potions over ~11.6K characters, which makes them a lot rarer than Tomahawks, and most of them seem to be on mules.

Does this include banks and that "bug"?

Lore only rewards is the only one I've gotten from you, in four parts (well, you mentioned secret maps - but that's recursion - what do you put on said secret maps?). Explained that it doesn't address the issue at hand, and freezes the game here in all other respects. Don't recall you explaining how that's wrong.

I personally have been abstaining for god knows how long on reading the Lanethan since I learned of it existence, waiting for it to be added in game as collectible items(even though I've been told its really not that much to look forward too in terms of writing). I think it'd be at least a little exciting finding lore snippets during my runs for whatever crazy new weapon that will get added, like a consolation prize.

I, don't think folks are going to be satisfied with plays at Deralia Theatre.

This shows how totally out of touch you are. There's no way this wouldn't instantly become one of the most beloved mechanics in the game.

Not to burst your bubble, while I'd love to check out this theatre map at least once, I only ever see myself revisiting it to show the novelty off to people who haven't seen it already. Cool idea but I think you're really playing up how spectacular it is.

 

[Thothie]

I also gave you potion cool downs, and making potions rarer, both of which you more or less dismissed as not viable simply because they don't perfectly solve the problem, even though they at least mitigate the problem.

Just saying rarity and price doesn't help (a lot of them are already pretty darn rare), and that cool downs has the same issue as one-at-a-time, it's just not as easy. Regardless of the type of nerf, would also have to nerf the encounters that require them.

Does this include banks and that "bug"?

Banks yes, that obviously no. But if you're going to balance maps with that in mind, kinda boned. Basically makes the maps unplayable for anyone not cheating. (Kinda suspect that's part of what's going on, but nerfing the pots would still help with that, some, just can't be done with encounters made with it in mind.)

But yeah I do think lore only rewards are a pretty good option.

Meh, would save some scripting time - be a shame about all the models going to waste though - guess we could exclusively upgrade existing models, dump the weapon modification system idea, and the nukes, freeze the game here.

Kinda like the idea, as I'd like to finally be able to concentrate on story instead of game, but I'd have to start a poll on something like that - not quite at the point where I'd refuse to work on the game if I can't do storyteim yet.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Not to burst your bubble, while I'd love to check out this theatre map at least once, I only ever see myself revisiting it to show the novelty off to people who haven't seen it already. Cool idea but I think you're really playing up how spectacular it is.

If there were plays you could only watch if you were lucky enough to obtain a semi-rare ticket, you'd go back there for sure every time you got a ticket. Especially if there were lots of different tickets. And even if you wouldn't lots of people would, especially if these plays referenced the lore in various ways. See:

I think it'd be at least a little exciting finding lore snippets during my runs for whatever crazy new weapon that will get added, like a consolation prize.

That's exactly what the tickets should be, a kind of consolation prize, with some of them being rather rare.

Meh, would save some scripting time - be a shame about all the models going to waste though - guess we could exclusively upgrade existing models, dump the weapon modification system idea, and the nukes, freeze the game here.

To clarify I don't think we need to stop releasing new stuff entirely, just be careful about backing ourselves even further into a corner, and one way to help prevent that would be for SOME rewards to be lore based. The lore system you and MiB are working on is definitely a step in the right direction in that regard.

I also don't want to seem like I advocate letting models go to waste either but at the same time, they shouldn't take away from lore/story related stuff. Striking a balance is needed although I would lean more towards story stuff and less towards new items.

 

[Thothie]

That's exactly what the tickets should be, a kind of consolation prize, with some of them being rather rare.

Putting a lot on Dridje there - SFAIK, he only has the one play. Had hoped to stick the thing inside Deralia, but haven't heard of any progress in that regard yet, nor attempted it myself. I'll probably have to dig into that map myself when I get the priests running either way (Think Dehoth rigged it up to be easy enough to unclog the temples - got so much dialogue written up for those poor perpetually back burnered bastards).

There are, of course, tons of plans for lore, including a series of personal background quests, mainline quest, faction quests, title quests, dynamic quests, but, aside from books, the few end game items, and future maps, no previous plans to dish them out in lue of late game rewards.

To clarify I don't think we need to stop releasing new stuff entirely, just be careful about backing ourselves even further into a corner, and one way to help prevent that would be for SOME rewards to be lore based. The lore system you and MiB are working on is definitely a step in the right direction in that regard.

I also don't want to seem like I advocate letting models go to waste either but at the same time, they shouldn't take away from lore/story related stuff. Striking a balance is needed although I would lean more towards story stuff and less towards new items.

(Mumble mumble...) Kinda where we were before this thread started going into rantland. Aside from the bombs, ain't got no new items, and was working on the lore system.

So, after all this... Yer saying you want me to just keep on doing what I was doing? ><

 

[Thothie]

My main complaint about ihotohr is that he can overflow me with ease

I'll see what I can do about reducing the sprite generation, but it seems just one beam and one spiral shouldn't be doing that much, and his escorts don't make much... Might be some extra CLFX I'm not taking into account (think some sprites drift from his hands when he casts, like with Keledros, could nix those at least). Can't recall if I swapped out his sprite barrier with a single model already... That sprite barrier has always been trouble.