God

[Thothie]

P.S. - I saw something about a blanket or robe of some sort that belonged to Jesus in some museum. Anyone know anything about that?

The Shroud of Turin - less of a Linus style security blanket, more of a, well, death shroud - was supposedly used to wrap Jesus up when he died.

The Catholic Church, as I recall, still declares it a true holy relic, although there are several scientific studies with varying results. It's held up to better scrutiny than the Spear of Longinus (the spear that pierced said Savior's heart) that is to this day held in the Vienna National Museum as the genuine article, despite the fact it's certainly fake. So as holy relics go...

But no, get the idea out of your head right now, you are not cloning Jesus and bringing him back from the dead from the bits of blood on the shroud. For one, it's already been done in far too many cheap science fiction novels, and for another, there simply isn't any genetic material intact enough on the thing to do the job (it being, between 400 and 2000 years old, depending on which study you believe).

Although, if you really want the genetic bits of the most famous Christ, you can always track down his descendants via the Priory of Sion or some such - but unlike Dan Brown, I don't feel that's an appropriate story to unleash upon the Christians without ample warning. :roll:
_________________
"If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be... a Christian." -Mark Twain
Saint Thoth

 

[JabbahRulz]

bored, BORED!

Offtopic post, OFFTOPIC POST!

 

[deadvoices]

Cloning? That was not my point, idea, or nearly even a thought.

 

[HomestarR]

hmm.... cloning Jesus....

So very wrong

 

[Thothie]

Cloning? That was not my point, idea, or nearly even a thought.

Jeeze, you call yourself a believer in science, and didn't come up with that idea straight off? I've obviously read too much into your post.
_________________
"Why, if it weren't for scientists, the people of this great nation would constantly be sick and ridden by crippling polio! We have contributed so much to this great nation and the only thing we have asked for in return is the freedom to occasionally conduct questionable experiments in the name of science. Is that really too much to ask?" - Waltar, Half-life
Saint Thoth

 

[deadvoices]

I believe in science not miracles. I know that the chances of his actual genetic material remaining on a cloth over hundreds of years to be very unlikely. Besides, last I heard the claims of cloning made by one country were false.

 

[JabbahRulz]

I believe in science not miracles. I know that the chances of his actual genetic material remaining on a cloth over hundreds of years to be very unlikely. Besides, last I heard the claims of cloning made by one country were false.

Imho, pigs can fly?

 

[Thothie]

Well... I suppose it maybe mathematically possible someday... If you could reverse engineer the bacteria's digestion process and subsequent degradation then reconstruct the DNA on a molecular level (said bacteria that ate said blood was used for the higher age estimates) - then use the Priory's info for comparison data. I mean - it's science, anything's possible, eventually - assuming we don't all kill each other or neglect to get off the planet before something else does it for us... (Sadly, very likely IMO)

Totally off topic, but after the research I've done on the Korean cloning thang - I must say, I'm not entirely convinced the research was falsified. Indeed, it seems to me a lot of the evidence for falsification is falsified or taken out of context. This reminds me a great deal of when two prestigious professors, with everything to lose, "falsified" cold fusion. Funny how they both wound with huge contracts with a government that denies the value of their work soon afterwards. I suspect one should not underestimate the PTB's ability to squash any scientific discovery the world isn't economically ready for... Save for the nuclear bomb (which probably lead to them being quite a bit more stringent).

 

[deadvoices]

Yes I agree, science may one day be able to, if we don't blow each other to pieces.

 

[kanfoosh]

proof that god doesnt exist in reality:
Hormones... the male species have a small amount of female hormones and if a male didnt have female hormones he wouldve probably killed every other human so the first human(whats his name) wouldve just killed his children or made them starve to death by stealing their food and how do females hormones even exist if the female was created from a males limb?
YOUR LIFE IS A LIE EXEPT IT OR DIE!!!

 

[Witness of God]

Just for a future note, try capitalizing your 'g' because if I was thee almighty I'd strike you down the moment you lower caps my G.

And I have no comment for Christianity as I am only Catholic. :roll:

Isn't Catholicism a branch of Christianity?

Thats so stupid when people say im not christian. Catholics are Christian it was just the name they gave the church when it was started. CATHOLIC MEANS THE UNIVERSAL CHURCH i swear omg. They started the whole become a catholic when there were people saying im christian and doing things that they didnt like such as people translating the latin bible into english...other languages then they go anal and burn them at a stake. So they became all radical and its almost become a cult.

 

[Thothie]

Did I mentioned that I think he forgot his [/sarcasm] tag? (Hence the rolling eyes) Catholics, who make up 90% of Christianity, get such a bad wrap from the other 10% - I mean, isn't Catholic guilt punishment enough? (Not to mention all that stale communion bread... the endless Rosary counting... Oh, and big nuns with rulers - don't forget those!)

I dunno if kanfoosh's post is a good argument against the existence of the divine - but it's certainly a good argument against the effectiveness of Darwinism.
_________________
"So, your incentive to get people to become Christian is that they shouldn't have sex? Well, I've got one thing to say about that: Baruch atah adonai!" - Louis Black
Saint Thoth

 

[LukeW]

Don't be ridiculous. Objective truth does not really exist, so how could a mind as simple as ours know the answer to something like that.

 

[Witness of God]

...........

Use em

 

[Thothie]

Objective truth does not really exist

I'm willing to bet Ayn Rand, Descartes, Spinoza, Plato (and ergo Socrates), and a few hundred famous philosopher's in-between, both believer and non, would have a bone to pick with that, if not more than half of all the greatest thinkers of recorded history.

Go find some of Plato's Dialogues... Or even just a Cliff notes of them, paying particular attention to the Theory of the Forms... Then skip onto the Dialogue(/comedy) between Parmenides and young Socrates with the non-existence of objective truth in mind (the whole thing, not just the Cliff notes). You should find yourself most entertained. "Most true."
_________________
"There is no such thing as truth." - Adolph Hitler
Saint Thoth

 

[Witness of God]

then they go anal.

They can't go anal! They hate homosexuals! ROFL!

ROFL Thanks i needed a good laugh

 

[Thothie]

I do get mixed messages from the Catholic church - which seems to go to such great lengths to scold you for having sex, or even thinking of having sex, but then has so many rules promoting reproduction (no birth control, no sterility, no gay stuff, no self-euthanasia), that it starts to look less like a religion and more like a mandatory breeding program.

But from the Catholic church I get more a mood of 'disapproval' when it comes to homosexuality, rather than hatred. They at least go so far as to say that the homosexual is a human being who can be saved, even if she remains a homosexual to the day of her death.

Sadly, living in the states, I live in the country that houses the most ultra-conservative nazi'esque anti-homosexual "Christian" denominations that have no qualms about making their hatred clear and concise. Many of the southern Baptist and Methodist variants go so far as to call you unchristian if you fail to hate homosexuals with every last bit of your soul. Hurray for puritan heritage holding the old testimate over the new. :\

They also hold the bulk of the power in this country, judging by landslide votes whenever an anti-gay measure comes to the poles. Even here, in ultra-blue California (The Governator not withstanding), where we have it explicitly written in our constitution that you shall not make laws that discriminate based on sexual preference - a law prohibiting gay marriage gets authenticated by the courts sworn to uphold said constitution, repeatedly. There were (and I hear, still are) several bills coming to the ballot that would erase even civil unions - and two of the most popular of those included measures to eliminate the legality of inter-racial marriages - just in case there was any doubt as to the kind of thinking that is behind this stuff. Both the aforementioned bills got over a million signatures, along with some other, only slightly less aggressive hatred based legislation.

Even with the most charitable religious organizations, like the Salvation Army, you still see this. The SA had more thrift stores in San Francisco than anywhere else in the country, and it was estimated that hundreds of thousands of Frisco's poor depended on them for basic necessities - for survival. (Hell, my ex and I were among them in 94-96!) Yet they closed them all in 1997 on the basis that the city was, "not doing enough to fight the rampant scourge of homosexuality."

I suspect the Christ they claim to worship would not approve.
[/rant]

In reality, I'm just bitter because my favorite long time lesbian friends, recently married, were basically driven out of the country by this crap, amongst other friends who have suffered needlessly.
_________________
"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter." - Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922
Saint Thoth

 

[Witness of God]

Truthfuly I dont agree with gay marriage. Nothing can make being gay right. Its disgusting :? I love em and my second best friend is gay but i love em enough to not support them doing those things to themselves. They shouldnt look at the outside of a girl but the inside.

 

[meazum]

People could take that in a very perverted way, Witness....
Of course god exists! He is the answer to everything! It is what we believe in!

Exactly like memory in a computer , what we believe in also has mass on another dimentional plane!

 

[Red Cell]

Witness, do you believe killing is justifiable?

 

[Thothie]

Nothing can make being gay right. Its disgusting.

In a way, I agree.

The only reason I'm straight, is due to one simple fact that has plagued me all my life: I hate men. I really do... Not only do I find them invariably physically disgusting, but I oft find them lacking in mental and spiritual balance, and also oft emotionally and intellectually paralyzed. My RL friends have been almost exclusively female since pre-school. The only place I care to deal with men, aside from a select few friends, is on-line, where their constant efforts of one-upmanship, that are normally so infuriating, provide mild intellectual entertainment that you may not find amongst your, usually, less competitive female populace, and where you can simply close the effing window when you get sick of it!

I've never understood why women put up with us, much less are attracted to us - it's just a fact that I've learned to accept and be grateful for.

Similarly, I've learned to accept the fact that some men are attracted to and only fall in love with other men. (It actually took me longer to accept the fact that some women are not, in any way, attracted to other women.) As with women loving men, I've never understood it, can't comprehend why, but it's a fact, and I accept it.

So, I see no reason to prevent consenting couples from marrying the people they love. This is harms me and my marriage (or more accurately, my divorce, and three ex-fiancées, and current date) in no way, and has absolutely no affect on my love life.

If anything, it's beneficial to me - as maybe the guy at the hair salon won't be so frustrated, over that fact that he can't find any stability in his love-life, that he fux up my hair!

As for women with women, I've no idea why people have a problem with that (again, I've many lesbian and bi-sexual female friends) - other than the fear that mayhaps they will all come to their senses and stop fraternizing with us. Lesbianism has always been more acceptable though, and I see no sign of that becoming a real issue. (Besides, lesbian pr0n is almost exclusively consumed by straight men.)

If we were under populated, I'd understand - but go outside and look around and tell me that's a problem (assuming you don’t live in Wisconsin). It may even be that the fact that, roughly, 10% of higher mammals seem to be born gay is a natural defense against overpopulation that we are defeating with our prejudice.

Besides, which would you rather have: Gay marriage and acceptance of human sexuality - or your dad telling you when you're eight, "Sorry son, but the truth is: I'm gay."

Exactly like memory in a computer , what we believe in also has mass on another dimentional plane!

No more Serial Experiments Lain for you.
_________________
"I think Gay people are like blondes, there're fewer of them, but they have more fun." Rita Mae Brown, Writer
Saint Thoth

 

[bluezerosix7]

all i want to say is that im protestant and im glad im not catholic b/c they seem to be so undecided on stuff like sex. Martin Luther essentially said hey i wanna have sex with a wife so he left (in my interpretation lol).

on a random side-note, im one of the few protestants who believes in the existance of Lilith (Adam's first wife who had sex with all 3 sects of angels and had nasty babbies). Hence, why i believe in crypozoology =). Also, a 3rd sect of rogue angels helps to understand the religions of civilizations who hadn't heard of the christian God yet. Also, many historians draw a lot of connections between Lilith and Loki (a norse god). I have to say something nordic is in there =)

if anyone is totally lost on that, Thothie would provide the best explanation, ive only gleaned a bit of information - not much about rogue angels and lilith are available in protestant settings.

 

[Aecleron]

God doesn't exit. I believe in Domo XD

If any body believe in this inexistente god, next time, when you fell ill, don't use any medicine, only talk with god and we'll see if you heal.

 

[HomestarR]

I've never understood why women put up with us, much less are attracted to us - it's just a fact that I've learned to accept and be grateful for.

Pharaemones. We got the scent. Oh yeah, and certain appendages that they find disgusting, but oh so very useful.

I won't pretend to understand women. Hell, I won't even pretend to understand men. Only person I really understand is myself, and I don't expect anyone to understand me.

I coulda swore this thread died.

 

[Thothie]

Heh, this thread comes back to life more often than Jesus.

on a random side-note, im one of the few protestants who believes in the existance of Lilith (Adam's first wife who had sex with all 3 sects of angels and had nasty babbies). Hence, why i believe in crypozoology =). Also, a 3rd sect of rogue angels helps to understand the religions of civilizations who hadn't heard of the christian God yet. Also, many historians draw a lot of connections between Lilith and Loki (a norse god). I have to say something nordic is in there =)

There is so much misinformation spread about Lilith, I don't even know where to begin - but that there is a new one. If you are going to 'believe' in Lilith, however, you've already left the mainstream Protestant Church in more than one way and midas chose a new church (although, you've not mentioned which denomination). For many of them Genesis is parable (and I 'believe', insomuch as I believe anything, that it must be taken as such, or one does not learn the lessons it teaches), and Luther was much more fond of removing books from the Catholic cannons, than tacking previously rejected holy works on. All the holy texts that mention Lilith (with one or two debatable exceptions) are found in books ousted in the Council of Nicea and during The Scourge, and various Hebrew scripts that never reached candidacy at all. (She also gets second-hand mention in some Islamic scriptures)

The most reliable accounts I've been able to put together, drawing primarily from research done on older Hebrew sources, place Lilith as the first wife of Adam, created not from Adam, but from that same 'filth of the land' the angels kept complaining about in the extra-biblical Hebrew and Islamic texts. The most recurring account, is that Lilith refused to be subservient to Adam (to put it gently) and was thus booted out of Eden to the Land of Nod - and the second time around, God decided to use a bit of his first creation, a rib, to mold his second female, to ensure harmony. (There are also differing accounts, where Lilith left of her own will to yet another land, but they contradict later accounts of Caine's activities in The Book of Enoch)

Nod was a barren land and, although not subject to mortality, being pre-original sin, Lilith apparently still needed to eat. She thus created fruit, not from a tree, but from her own desire, and thus became, in the eyes of some, the first Witch. Later, when Caine too was banished to the Land of Nod, for not realizing that God is not a vegetarian (^_^), he ate there of, and they had a bunch of kids that later showed up at Enoch and interbred the other descendents of Adam and Eve.

Lilith apparently stayed in the Land of Nod after Caine left to help build his city. Hebrew legends vary, but she was apparently rather bitter both before or after meeting Caine and spent a good deal of her time giving birth to many demons, called Lilins, or Lilloids, or some similar perversion of their mother's name (in all likelyhood, her name is actually derived from the demons and not visa versa, however). These were obviously adaptations of a Babylonian demon, which in turn were adapted from East Asian legends to which they derive a striking resemblance: small ghostly, legless females with long tongues that cause miscarriages (the Babylonian variant was more owl like, however). The legends of these demons, however, date back to Yahwey and Azura, well before Lilith, and accounted for the high number of miscarriages in their age - Lilith, in all likelihood, merely was a good new demon to pin the blame on.

Lilith breeding with angels is entirely a modern conception (tis just about up there with Caine's curse being vampirism). Her most demonic feature, was that she was able to create without seed. There were, however, some medieval stories and gilded texts, some considered holy by the Cathars, where three angels came unto her to offer her escort back to Eden (this done at Adam's begging). They also threatened that, each day she refused, they would kill her children by the hundreds (this is post-Eve, but pre-Caine, so presumably we are speaking of Lilloids). She continued to refuse, and as vengeance, swore those of her children that survived would plague the children of Adam and Eve (hence the late explanation for the baby eating demons that Gabe Newell is no doubt possessed by). This story was so popular, at one time, that it became common for every mid-wife to say a prayer that included the names of those three angels that the child would be saved from miscarriage. In some places, the prayer continues to be used to this day.

There is another Lilith, who was the consort of Samael in the Kabbalic tradition (not one of your nicer angels) - however this isn't the same figure, but yet another angelic force pre-dating man altogether - I think this may be what started confusion. (Just as the Lord of Khemennu 'Thoth' has caused so much confusion with my own namesake.)

Speaking of Yahewy and Azura, it is most often accepted that Lilith is the final incarnation of the 'Wife of God' in the progression of Hebrew religion from polytheistic to monotheistic. The evolution manifests itself quite clearly in the early Hebrew artwork, where Yahwey and Azura first stand side by side, and as time goes on, Azura becomes smaller and smaller, while Yahwey becomes self-created and more powerful. Eventually, Yahwey becomes the God we know today, and Azura becomes some crabby lady He created that just didn't quite work out. Thus why many feminists point, not to Eve, as the last aspect of the Goddess in Hebrew religion - but to Lilith.

The very interesting thing is that this same pattern occurred to almost all religions in Mesopotamia around that time. Most pre-historic religions are female dominated, and they, in turn, mutate into male-dominated religions as the people leave from a nomadic or hunting-gathering culture to settle into an agrarian society. You can see this same transition, to varying degrees, with Maduk and Tiamat among the Babylonians, Isis and Osiris amongst the Egyptians, and Enil and Innana amongst the Sumerians. All previously female creation goddesses, suddenly getting the proverbial demotion by their male counterparts.

As for Lilith and Loki... Loki is a trickster god, while Lilith is a crone goddess. Tis true, Loki has the power of creation, and despite being male, gives birth to all sorts of nutty things, while Lilith creates her own sustenance, and gives birth to one of two things, but the main point is that two figures do not serve nearly the same purpose in their stories. The legend of Lilith, however, predates the first rune of Loki by the Nordic people by about 2500 years (and therefore about 3000 years against the Anglo-Saxons), so any influence is strictly one-way. There's probably a better parallel between Hel and Lilith.

Still, although it's generally accepted that Asatru draws most strongly from its Greek and Celtic influences - there is, one must admit, a certain Christian parable in the story of Odin and his hanging himself from a tree for nine days... Not to mention the entire apocalyptic story of Ragnarok.

These sorts of parallels are not at all uncommon in religion though. Indeed, they are so typical, one is left to wonder of their common source.
_________________
"Religion is but the most ancient and honorable way in which men have striven to make sense out of God's universe. Scientists seek the lawfulness of events. It is the task of Religion to fit man into this lawfulness." - Mua'Dib
Saint Thoth

PS. As for the comment on Martin... Luther was doing a LOT of very good, but anti-Catholic, things well before he got married, including providing burial rights for suicide victims, refusing to collect or force indulgences (coins collected to forgive sins), and speaking out, rather loudly, against the practices of indulgences and Catholic hypocrisy in general. All of which got him in quite a bit of trouble well before he even met his wife - so don't be dissing the Lutherans... Besides, Garrison Keillor is funny as hell.