Modelling in Blender?

[andy-held]

Hey there,
I played MS in the good'ol HL modding time and I would like to do some modelling for MSC since its looking like a darn cool thing, but some of the models...
Well I have never tossed away a game because of the gfx if its got the gameplay, but there are those like one of my pals who refuses to play Baldur's Gate ever since it's been released because he says its too damn ugly!!
But back to the theme:
Has anybody ever tried to get these .mdl files in or out of Blender?
I got info on several other games using mdl files, but I doubt that they are the same format (I made some .mdl files for NWN some years ago, but the blender importer/exporter i found for that didn't quite work(and i doubt it is the same format)).
And then:
I read some threads and every now and then smbdy says "thats got way too much polys" is there something like a fix limit for mdl files, or just a "engine can't handle six guys with 200.000 face mdls".
If anybody knows the format mdl files are written in I could also try to write a Blender plugin myself, although i cant promise anything on this, since I don't know how much work this is.(I'm moderate in python, but havn't got a clue about blender plugin writing)

 

[Thothie]

Not familiar with Blender, but the Half-life/Quake .mdl format is pretty common, consiting of reference and animation SMD's managed by a QC. The modeling program of choice for Half-Life seems to be Milkshape 3D, followed by 3DSMax, for the truly professional.

2000 poly seems to be about the performance limit for monster models in Goldsrc, maybe less for viewmodels, but I *suspect* you could go as high as 4000 with a boss monster, provided he didn't require much escort. I've never seen a monster model that pushes the performance limits, so I couldn't be sure. Even Gaz's Bludgeon (by far our finest model) is only around 1800 polys.

Ye may wish to try google and see what ye get.

 

[FER]

MSC performance wise, 2000 is ok, weapons might use a bit less. Non MSC wise, it can be very high (7000), given that you dont stick 5 7k poly models in one room.
Good custom textures really can make even the most blocky model look ten times better

In the end its about basing how much detail you should give to a model according to how much a player can inspect it (dragonflies are a good example)

The modeling program of choice for Half-Life seems to be Milkshape 3D, followed by 3DSMax, for the truly professional.

Theres also Khed for those who want to try something new, tough its still in early versions.

 

[Raider666]

I know that this is a necropost but as I was reading this post I just wanted to inform you all that I have compiled my first 60,000+some_change poly goldsrc model. Tested in HLM, SC4.07b, MSC 1.11 Mar 2010b, and even Brain Bread! Works fine!

 

[ceriux]

oh my hl2 model in hl1?

 

[Thothie]

60,000 poly? Even Source would choke on that. :\

I do know that no single SMD can have more than about 3000 vertexes in it when you compile an HL1 model - however, you can break the model up into multiple SMD. Performance wise, however, likely not a good idea. I'm not *sure* if models that complex will load - they probably will - but the FPS hit they'd add would likely not be worth it.

Milkshape has a few simplification plugins - most direct being the Direct 3D mesh, where you can cut down on poly globally. Downside, in addition to the obvious (makes model blockier in random ways) is that it seems to abandon the skeleton or any animations in the process, so you have to re-rig the whole thing. Might involve some welding as well. Good for HD props imported from other games though.

 

[Echo717]

I know that this is a necropost but as I was reading this post I just wanted to inform you all that I have compiled my first 60,000+some_change poly goldsrc model. Tested in HLM, SC4.07b, MSC 1.11 Mar 2010b, and even Brain Bread! Works fine!

I wanna see, I wanna see, pics please, pics please

 

[Stoned]

60,000+ polygons? Hmm...that would lag if theres a lot of em. At least, thats what I think would happen. 100% positive that it will with a lot of the 60,000+ polygon models. And btw...Blender is really only used for Half-life 2 modeling AND from what I have heard it is best for CHARACTER modeling. Square models look ugly in Blender.

 

[Thothie]

I think ONE of them would be enough. 60,000 is 4x-6x more model polys that you see on an ENTIRE MSC map, players, monsters, viewmodels, map models, and all. Your average HL2 human model (which are the most detailed due to the facial expression system), has 6500 poly. So that's worth any ten of the most detailed models in your average Source game.

 

[Stoned]

should be one EPIC model

 

[jon50559]

60k polies is simply unnecessary and is insultingly crossing the line into braggery. The most detailed models used in MODERN games max out at 15-20k polies for character models, and I can't think of any situation where you'd need more, let alone for a game nearing 13 years old.

I think this is enough de-railing though

 

[Raider666]

Ill start a new thread and get some pics going, but no no I put about 5 of these models into the city of Reasha and tracked fps with Fraps.... never dipped below 20.

should be one EPIC model

And the model isn't very visually impressive aside from the numbers, its a massive field of wheat that sways in the wind. There are about 10,000 pieces of wheat in the model, and about 200 bones :O
The post will include some of my other work too exclusively released to you guys before it goes on moddb!

60k polies is simply unnecessary and is insultingly crossing the line into braggery. The most detailed models used in MODERN games max out at 15-20k polies for character models, and I can't think of any situation where you'd need more, let alone for a game nearing 13 years old.

I would call it high quality modeling myself but braggery works too lol. Anyways what modern games have you been playing? Games are quite ahead of 15-20K now :|
That was the standard about 3 years back!

60,000 poly? Even Source would choke on that. :\

I doubt it, goldsource handles it fine...

I do know that no single SMD can have more than about 3000 vertexes in it when you compile an HL1 model - however, you can break the model up into multiple SMD. Performance wise, however, likely not a good idea. I'm not *sure* if models that complex will load - they probably will - but the FPS hit they'd add would likely not be worth it.

That is the trick, I had to break it into LOTS of smds

Milkshape has a few simplification plugins - most direct being the Direct 3D mesh, where you can cut down on poly globally. Downside, in addition to the obvious (makes model blockier in random ways) is that it seems to abandon the skeleton or any animations in the process, so you have to re-rig the whole thing. Might involve some welding as well. Good for HD props imported from other games though.

This plugin IMO is a model destroyer. Back when I used to attempt to fit my models into one smd I tried this on several models. Yes the whole thing must be re-rigged, It can mess up the UV map, and not to mention it leaves hundreds of holes in the model that show up in animation. My advice: Dont ever simplify your model...Just use another smd if you have too

The point of the post here was to state that goldsrc can render such models fine... the hard limit was just a theory because nobody ever tried to put such models in goldsrc!

 

[Stoned]

What are your computer specs Raider? If you have a beastly computer then of course it wont drop below 20 FPS :|

 

[Thothie]

200 bones would lag the server, on top of 60k poly yer already slaughtering the client with, surprised it even loaded though.

Ya know, unless each and every one of these wheat stalks has a unique animation, you could probably rig them all to one set of bones and just displace the offsets.

 

[jon50559]

I would call it high quality modeling myself but braggery works too lol. Anyways what modern games have you been playing? Games are quite ahead of 15-20K now :|
That was the standard about 3 years back!

Sure modern games may be able to handle higher quality models, but whether or not they've been needed as of yet is to be determined. I'd like an example(s). :?

 

[Raider666]

@ stoned: 3.2 phenom tri core AMD, 8 GB ram, 2 nvidia 7950 GX2 multi gpu (2gb video ram) and a sata 7200 spin Seagate 750 Barracuda.... and a badass case...

@ thothie: can this me done in ms3d? what sort of teqhnique did you use? Here is a pic of how I solved animating it: This cut it from 200 to 100 bones and seems to be what you describe::

nevermind I keep getting this on my < 2mb WheatLow.jpg

Could not upload attachment to ./files/628_db04eb7843c3391ae496a1fa1bddc9c2.


@Lockdown

Here is a good discussion of some of the games that have been recently released about model polies:

The big difference is in the cutscene models games are using now, but higher ones appear in gameplay also. eg: lost planet-- choked even my comp. before I upgraded to my current setup!
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=43975

 

[PBarnum]

Raid, I think its safe to say that we ALL want to see a picture of this model of yours. Please upload it here, if not, upload it to a different site.

 

[FER]

Just by chance, is that female model on your mod page?

 

[Raider666]

@ P Barnum : I tried to upload it here and got this error:

Could not upload attachment to ./files/628_db04eb7843c3391ae496a1fa1bddc9c2.

I dont get it, it is a .jpg less than 2mb, I guess ill go to imageshack and link it when i get home... bleh....

@ FER, what female model? the sorceress? There are only pics of her on the mod page, but that model had about 30,000 polies thanx to the subdivide vertex command!

 

[FER]

Attachments arent working on the forums for some reason.

I think the problem is that 60k poly can be considered unnecesary, specially when you can achieve the same quality with less polys and excellent textures.

 

[Raider666]

Yes FER I agree now also that 60K polies was ridiculous for a wheat field model. I Reduced the bones from 200 to 100 and brought the polies down to 36,000 for now. Its really not an interesting model to look at anyways guys, the glory of it was in the sheer numbers. I suppose you shall see it in the belated video we are editing for Doom Hunt anyways that will get posted soon on the mod page...

 

[FER]

OH, so it is a prop model, I tough it was a character model.

 

[Thothie]

@ thothie: can this me done in ms3d? what sort of teqhnique did you use? Here is a pic of how I solved animating it: This cut it from 200 to 100 bones and seems to be what you describe::

There's no limit to the number of vertixes you can assign to a single bone, and no limit to the distance said vertixes can be from said bone, so if you have 10,000 wheat stalks that are all waving in the wind in the same fashion, it should be possible to assign them all to a single set of bones in the middle of the field.

Not sure how easy that is to arrange inside Milkshape, but I do know from experience with working with fields of grass and fields of trees, if each stalk is in a seperate SMD, it can be done by simply off-setting the root location of each ref SMD, and only using 1 anim SMD.