The Thread of Endless Whine

[jon50559]

Re: Unholy Blade

EDIT: Intended to respond to Oysta's original post
I also ehh... skipped over an entire page of the thread by accident
You make good points, were this a team of dedicated members. Especially for maps, we rely heavily on a community-driven development. This essentially makes it impossible to focus our ideas and involve plot-lines in every map. Actually, sometimes a break from such serious plot-building is a blessing, where you can just not pay attention and kill things.

What you seem to be suggesting is putting on a content control mindset, and only letting (at minimum) maps that involve the Master Sword plot. To be honest I think there's no problem with putting *bad* maps in the game, sometimes they can be fun to play, even if they might look bad. Also, generally, these *bad* maps become disconnected from the game world, which artificially separates them from the game, in a sense.While all of our intentions are good Thothie is the mod leader with absolutely no doubt, and what he'll decide will be what'll happen.

 

[Jordy]

Re: Unholy Blade

Eh couldn't you just make some point system for getting items....

like instead of player X doing map "Blah blah" 11 times to get item B and getting 10 of item A in the process of getting item B allowing player X to twink 10 of item A.

so that player X does map "blah blah" 11 times to earn 11 points to buy reward B and not get 10 item A's...

catch my drift? meh i hate fourms

 

[Orochi]

Re: Unholy Blade

I'm not saying the traditional weaker stats is the best way, but it's the only way we got, without redesigning over 100 weapons and over 1000 monsters and over 70 maps and the entire damage type resistance system, and having everyone yell "nerf" when their stronger stats are brought down into line to even it all out. Deal with it.

Where the hell do you get the idea that I want to see all that redesigned? Just bring the "weaker" stats up on par with the normal ones in terms of power. Failing that, at least make sure each skill has a half-way decent weapon for the range of levels. Skills like MA have a gap where you're forced to work with an underpowered weapon, which is just artificial difficulty. Spellcasting suffers from this too. Though in the case of Spellcasting fire, it's more that you give them the ultimate weapon too early and now there's nothing left to give them.

The "levelling faster" comment was not well thought out, I'll admit.

One thing I'm curious about though, is how you mention that people will complain if you re-balance all the weapons. People are already complaining and the weapons aren't necessarily well-balanced even now, so how is it any better? I can understand not wanting to attempt it if it's going to be poorly received anyway, but please don't assume it's going to be poorly received without at least polling the community.

 

[Thothie]

Re: Unholy Blade

Where the hell do you get the idea that I want to see all that redesigned?

Because the current design depends on the setup you are suggesting abandoning. Evening the weapon lines, destroys the game's leveling system. You can't even one weapon line, without evening out them all, or at least lowering one other to less than it was be of equal usage to the one you raised. And I know it'll be poorly received, as the weapons everyone is currently depending on for hairy situations, will have to be nerfed to bring them in line with the new medium, thus they will no longer be able to handle the encounters they once could. The damage resistance schemes the monsters are all setup for will also all have to be rebalanced, or the new weapon line changed (in likely illogical ways) to retain the same level leveling rate and (in some cases) area restrictions.

 

[Orochi]

Re: Unholy Blade

Isn't it worth it to have a better game experience overall, though? :?

I know it's a lot of work, but it's something that will need doing eventually, if not now, then further down the line. At some point the whole system will need to be revamped, things can't continue like they are forever.

 

[Thothie]

Re: Unholy Blade

things can't continue like they are forever.

Yes, yes they can. The system isn't broken, statistically, it's working exactly like it should, and if anything, needs to be more strictly enforced. Only downside is it ticks off a few MA fanboys and such. So, as far into the future as I can see, the strategy of the system will remain as it is, barring an engine change resulting in the requirement of a whole new system from the ground up. Better to make a new game, than to break this one anyways.

Do need to rework the magic system to allow a greater variety of spells, but that's a lot less work (at least in comparison). Magic is secondary enough that I don't see as many riots resulting from a change in the balance of spell lines. It's also on that ever-increasingly-huge bonfire that's sitting on that back burner. Adding to that blaze, the Title system will eventually internally break free of the traditional system by favoring the weaker stats under some Titles, and races will provide entirely different leveling models (which are going to be ever so fun to work out balances for).

 

[Orochi]

Re: Unholy Blade

things can continue like they are forever, if you want to keep pissing a good number of players off.

Small correction to my above post.

All I really want to see is a 25-30 weapon for MA and any other skills that have the same problem. Truth be told, MA is actually fairly solid; you only really need so many pairs of gauntlets, after all, and the damage isn't terrible. My gripe is not that the weapons themselves are poor in damage, but that there is a gap from 25-30 where you're stuck with a weapon that was good about 5 levels ago but now is underpowered.

 

[Thothie]

Re: Unholy Blade

Yes, we got that - same problem. Didn't think we were talking about anything else.

 

[Orochi]

Re: Unholy Blade

How? You add in ONE new weapon for that range. Problem solved.

 

[Thothie]

Re: Unholy Blade

*sigh* See above 20 posts. There's already too many in what's supposed to be a difficult to level category. If anything, we should be removing tiers from the MA lineup, among at least one or two others that have gotten out of hand. If we add yet more, we have to slow down leveling in other weapon lines to compensate, as discussed ad nauseam already.

 

[Orochi]

Re: Unholy Blade

No, you shouldn't. There are not "too many". You're just arbitrarily deciding it should be weaker based on an outdated concept. It works quite well the way it is, truth be told, and adding a 25-30 weapon would serve to make it a solid lineup.

Stop actively trying to make it weaker. Accept that it doesn't have to be weak. Add in a weapon for the 25-30 range, and you have yourself a fairly solid item lineup. It's an incredibly simple solution that you're making more difficult because you want to fit it into your notion that MA must be weaker at all costs. At the very least, it's saved you the work of re-balancing it completely and made the solution that much smaller.

Well, there may be too many lower-level ones, if that's what you mean. But certainly the 25-30 range is barren.

Long story short, you've been handed a decent solution to the problem that will please a number of players. Don't let outmoded concepts screw that up.

 

[Thothie]

Re: Unholy Blade

You've not proposed a solution, you've just proposed a way to break it further. It's not an outmoded or outdated concept - it's how the game works.

Not screwing up the game just cuz you refuse to see the bigger picture. I've laid it out for you, and you just choose to ignore it. You cannot even out the weapon lines without rebuilding the entire system to slow folks down in some other way. It might make some players happier to ignore that fact and just do it regardless, but so would boosting everyone to level 100. Just cuz it makes folks happy, does not mean it is what is best for the game.

 

[Orochi]

Re: Unholy Blade

I can see the bigger picture; I can also see that it's exclusively your bigger picture. I'm proposing a different one. Don't assume that yours is the only path for MS:C out there. I have proposed a solution, it just doesn't mesh with your big picture so you decry it as a way to "break" it instead.

Just cuz it makes folks happy, does not mean it is what is best for the game.

I wholeheartedly agree.

People wouldn't make threads like these if they didn't see a problem with how your big picture is playing out, though.

 

[Thothie]

Re: Unholy Blade

It's not my bigger picture - it is the bigger picture. It's a simple fact: evening the weapon lines destroys the existing leveling system further still, causing folks to level faster still, and leaving less for those near the level wall to occupy themselves with. There's no room for debate on that fact. Adding fuel to a fire makes the fire bigger, period. The fact that you want to further even the weapon lines while ignoring that fact has no bearing on its existence. You are not proposing a new bigger picture, you are just ignoring the existing reality.

 

[Orochi]

Re: Unholy Blade

Yes, well, I'm certainly not the only one who ignores things around here.

But I do see your point, somewhat. If you're locked in by the leveling system then there's not much you can do. Still, it's a shame this sort of thing wasn't thought about way back when it could still be changed easily. I guess I just wish you had a better way of going about preventing people from leveling faster than having to intentionally cripple some skills.

 

[Thothie]

Re: Unholy Blade

Still, it's a shame this sort of thing wasn't thought about way back when it could still be changed easily.

It's not so much that it wasn't thought of, as it is the way it was intended to work.

What they didn't think of, was some fool coming in and adding nifty weapons to a weaker line that might make people WANT to level it more prematurely. You have to remember, MSC 1.0 MA had no dynamic kick and no gauntlets. Just punch, and a player model kick (that did nothing that punch didn't already do) and that was it. Similarly, it only had two spells that you could level, and both were pretty pathetic. Fire dart and erratic lightning were it - ice shield and rejuv were there, but ice shield did nothing, and rejuv lagged the server to the point where it was more efficient just to sit - and the other two spells were bjorked completely (and you needed a years worth of playing to even access them). All new bows did was let you fire more accurately, and maybe further, but none had any affect on damage, nor were there crossbows, nor any arrows better than lesser flame arrows. Now, I've accelerated the other weapon lines to keep up, but not enough to make the lesser lines look as unappealing as they should, apparently.

Now, it might be possible to make the weapon lines even out after a certain level (some of the weaker ones already do), but there still needs to be more time to invest in them than in the other weapon lines, at least until a certain high level, to avoid adding to the problem further.

 

[Hakariaki]

Re: Unholy Blade

Ma is fine the way it is if your going to get those über bear claws at lvl 30. If you go all the way up to 30MA bear claws is the big reward for all your work getting there. If you made it easier to lvl up to 30 i personally think bear claws should get nerfed a little bit. Kinda annoying seeing all those bears running around.
I'm not saying this becouse i'm lvl 30+ (lol i'm actually only lvl 23MA compared to my 39 Axe/sword lvl).

 

[Age]

Re: Unholy Blade

Eh, I wouldn't ask for a new 25-30 MA weapon, just a more damn effective 20 MA weapon. With my 23 MA I hit for like, 40-60, which is outperformed by my 11 Polearms at mid-range, doing 50+ with an even hitrate. Granted, I can't use a polearm's distance modifier well on anything fast while solo, but I could still whip out a holy lance on Islesofdread1 if I really wanted to level it (At appropriate level of course.) And even those guys are slow, so I could use a normal polearm there and take advantage of the damage. I can only use my demon claws until I'm out of mana, and the gap it takes to refill my mana is lost damage. I wouldn't mind just hitting 80 damage on something with a kick.

 

[Drathamus]

Re: Unholy Blade

Agreed... MA is my turn-off point for MS:C >.<

 

[Age]

Re: Unholy Blade

Last post wasn't meant to be selfish, more effective weapon could be put in at 25+, I'm a little tired, long week.
TL;DR, MA no do damage below 30

 

[rE-]

Re: Unholy Blade

I totally agree with you guys, its just ridiculous how bad ma is..
Dmg is at least 3-5x lower than any other weapons, hit rate is bad too.. There's nothing good about ma.
Maybe if it hit 2 times like animation is showing it would be ok?

All I really want to see is a 25-30 weapon for MA and any other skills that have the same problem. Truth be told, MA is actually fairly solid; you only really need so many pairs of gauntlets, after all, and the damage isn't terrible.

Damage is terrible, i mean if gloves could do something that other weapons cant do, it would be ok, maybe something like faster attack or 2 hits instead of 1? Or just do a decent dmg? But now its the same like any other weapon, speed is normal, hit rate is normal and damage is 5x lower, doesn't make any sense.. I think lvl 1-29 ma weapons should do more damage, bear claws are ok i guess never tried them tho..

Ok so i just tested the damage, demon claws can do only 10 dmg higher damage than a sharp knife (Sharp knife 35dmg/Claws 45dmg), and 20 higher damage than training hammer (training hammer 25dmg/Claws 45dmg) at lvl 25 ma..
Why do we even need ma?

It's a little weird that you can do 500 damage to a monster with some weapons, then you come with your shitty claws and start kicking his ass with your incredible 40dmg/hit, cant even kill a frigin goblin in 1 hit that gives me 25xp.

gn everyone >.>

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Re: Unholy Blade

I may have just thought of a workable solution to make MA more useful in general without causing it to level faster -

Allow us to use martial arts in conjunction with other weapons. For example, If I am wielding a level 12 sword or blunt and have level 12 martial arts, I should be able to do a stun kick while holding that sword (but the damage from the kick nets you zero experience). However, If I am wielding a level 20 sword, I should need level 20 MA to do the kick. This will provide perpetual reason to level martial arts to the end game without speeding the process.

Other special moves, like a roundhouse kick or something, might be cool but, alas, animations.

I agree with RE in that the damage from martial arts is absolutely abysmal - the worst in the game by far - until bearclaws. My above suggestion should fix that though.

Edit: Another potential idea - Maybe even allow us to block with every weapon (not just swords) and make blocking depend on how high your MA level is?

 

[jon50559]

Re: Unholy Blade

It's been stated all over the boards that some skills are harder to level than others, and that is on purpose. Bear claws are that sort of "epic reward" you get for leveling it that high; and a similar scenario with spell casting which gives you healing circle at level 20. Since, other than getting less xp on a certain skill, the only way to artificially increase the difficulty of a skill is to give it less weapons, and weapons that are less powerful.

It's like selecting a class that sucks badly at a low level, but once you get into the higher-end content, it finally blooms and becomes a real force to be reckoned with.

And, as Thothie said, MA and other skills are already way too easy to level, and weapons should be taken out of those lines to bring them back to how they were supposed to be played.

 

[Thothie]

Re: Unholy Blade

For example, If I am wielding a level 12 sword or blunt and have level 12 martial arts, I should be able to do a stun kick while holding that sword.

Yes, because the ability to repel and stun opponents at will, regardless of weapon, wouldn't mess up anything at all. (Or, you know, make bluntarms as useless as you seem to think it is.)

While we're at it, let's add eye lasers with MA.

Go off FN.
Type dev_on.
Look at monster.
bind x ". tpoke 9999"
Tap x
Sh*t brix.

Get your jolly's off that way... I've got a virus... Sadly, it's me, and not the computer... So I can't fix it by deleting system32... Meh, FTS...

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Re: Unholy Blade

We already can stun everything at will. Press Q, then kick. That is faster than waiting for the second charge with a blunt arm (and it repels). When I am using a blunt arm, I generally use a kick to stun because it's faster. The only thing my suggestion would change is that we no longer have to press Q.

But you could be slightly more creative with what i said - like allowing you to stun kick with a level 20 sword at level 25 martial arts.

It's been stated all over the boards that some skills are harder to level than others, and that is on purpose

I don't think anyone has actually missed this point. I've known this was the case long before this thread, thats for sure. What people are saying is that they don't really care too much how things are 'supposed to work' since the asymmetry in our skill set is artificial and, whats more, poorly executed. My suggestion wouldn't actually make MA more useful, although it might trick us into thinking it were.