Potions

[Thothie]

ITT: BoU vs everyone else.

Seems I'm leaning towards siding with BoU today...

I just want the ability to be creative with how my maps play. Unfortunately, I can't really do that because I have to take god-like players into consideration. In the end, this means I have to make a map that is harder than it would be without items like this in game.

Last I heard, your map series was low to mid level, and revolved around goblins and ants... One does not take into account high level players when creating mid-level maps. If you *want* to deal with high level players, you either make a high level map, or make it self adjusting. High level players tearing through mid level maps like so much papier-mâché is as it should be - else there's not much point in leveling. This is an MORPG, and like in most MORPG's, players gain power exponentially over time - it's not Svencoop.

[Two horribly over-equipped level 24 players dominate a mid level map]

Which is also, as it should be. Up until Clathain, there's nothing to threaten two over-equipped experienced mid-level players on Phobia. ...And if they are immune to fire, lightning, and stun to boot, there's not much she can do to them. Dunno if you managed to save the bandit escorts without exploiting, but while it'd be difficult, given the DPS the two could dish out, it wouldn't be impossible, with a good eye and enough demon blood - or, having one of those two players being horrifically over-specialized (level 31 polearms ffs).

From here on out, every single map must be designed with monsters that behave like torkalath elves.

Are you really going to complain about level 40 minions being overpowered? Jeeze... They aren't that bad, having maybe half the DPS of the Dragon Guards (who are about the same level). They have no immunities, flat resistances, are worth nearly 1:1 on their HP to XP ratio, which is insane for mobs that high, and only about a quarter of them have any sort of stun attack. Yes, they can jump like mofos, but they don't need to on the map, navigation being fairly straight forward for them and being escorted by projectile throwers to boot - and they don't even move all that fast. Wait a few more level cap raises, I'm sure they'll seem like boars before ya know it... Then you can moan about ice wyrms and Malgoriand's level 60 god-killers.


That all being said, I had intended to run through the scripts and make potions rarer, just didn't get around to it in FEB2013, but I didn't have much in the way of plans to actually nerf them. I suppose, if I wanted to be instantly cruel about it, without nerfing them at all, I could just make them un-bankable, which, given that they don't stack and eat up a lot of critical inventory space, which, at the higher levels, becomes a lot more critical, as you need a whole set of equipment to deal with every other set of elemental themed mobs, it would make them a lot rarer right quick. As it is, they are still rare and valued enough to be traded for unique weapons at fairly low ratios, as demonstrated in the trade threads.

(PS. inb4 poll destroyed by storm of fake logins)

 

[zeus9860]

Reasonable? You're a moron supporting for an overall player nerf at the risk of not getting any balance towards any of the maps we have with crappy hax stuff.

Yes, reasonable. What good does it do to call someone a moron and spew **** everywhere and threaten to 'pack your bags' because you don't like their point of view?

You have one, half articulated point. It's true that the game has been balanced around these ridiculous items, and to only nerf potions would leave us at a disadvantage against bosses like ihotor. However, to suggest that we should do nothing whatsoever and continue down the path we've been on is what's really idiotic. This game needs serious rebalancing all over the place, but all you seem to want are new maps that play exactly like the_wall, with new OP loot to keep you interested for 3-6 months. If anyone dares suggest otherwise, you threaten to pack your "****" bags.

I wasn't even speaking to you in the first place, you were the one to approach me thinking i was speaking of you, i did read the first few posts made by immature kids who like to report exploits they used quite often, just to get points for free loot. Sad move, from a sadistic bunch of noobs.

And for the record i did mention in one of my first posts that infact i support this IF maps get balanced or potions should become more rare and adjusted to map difficulty. So that nonsense you just said makes little to no point.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Last I heard, your map series was low to mid level, and revolved around goblins and ants... One does not take into account high level players when creating mid-level maps.

The series is designed for multiple level ranges, with mid level being the absolute lowest.

Are you really going to complain about level 40 minions being overpowered? Jeeze... They aren't that bad, having maybe half the DPS of the Dragon Guards (who are about the same level). They have no immunities, flat resistances, are worth nearly 1:1 on their HP to XP ratio, which is insane for mobs that high, and only about a quarter of them have any sort of stun attack. Yes, they can jump like mofos, but they don't need to on the map, navigation being fairly straight forward for them and being escorted by projectile throwers to boot. Wait a few more level cap raises, I'm sure they'll seem like boars before ya know it... Then you can moan about ice wyrms and Malgoriand's level 60 god-killers.

You've missed my point. Most monsters, tork elves included, are A) unreasonably hard without potions B) unreasonably easy with potions. I'm complaining that the game is balanced around these potions. Players have no choice but to horde the things. If I'm making a high level map/quest, I don't want players to have to drink potions to get through it. But If I make it beatable without potions it will be too easy, because players will just drink a potion.

It's a vicious cycle. Players horde OP potions, so all new maps have to be balanced with those potions in mind. This increases the amount of maps that require said potions, which in turn intensifies potion hording. Potion hording, of course, contributes to server crashing and is causing us all sorts of problems.

 

[Thothie]

The series is designed for multiple level ranges, with mid level being the absolute lowest.

Well then ya shoulda said something when I handed you quarter strength ogres and 100hp minions for your maps, but we don't have much in the way of goblins that can handle more than mid, maybe mid-high levels, at the moment, and the stronger of those aren't going to scale well. (Lest ya wanna spam lightning shamans, pouncers, and chieftens - which I do *not* recommend.)

[players resort to potions when shit hits the fan]

Yes, that is their intended use. They aren't going to waste them when they are running through maps beneath their level, but when dealing with mobs on the higher end or above them, one assumes they are going to have collected something to fall back on, at which point, as in most MORPG's, it becomes a matter of resource gathering and management - "Am I going to blow this now, and is it going to be worth it?"

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Well then ya shoulda said something when I handed you quarter strength ogres and 100hp minions for your maps

Can't I just scale their attack/hp up?

but we don't have much in the way of goblins that can handle more than mid, and maybe mid-high levels at the moment, and the stronger of those aren't going to scale well.

They seem to scale pretty decently on orc_for. I only need orc_for style scaling for the goblin siege, and the map isn't ready yet.

it becomes a matter of resource gathering and management - "Am I going to blow this now, and is it going to be worth it?"

It should only be this way for abnormally challenging monsters/bosses/events etc. not nearly the entire game. Just because a map is high level doesn't mean high levels should have to drink potions to get through it.

But it does when there are thousands of gpops already in circulation. If I want my map to have a chance at having decent loot, I have to populate it with monsters who can contend with players of the intended level range, on pot. Doesn't matter if the map is mid level or high level. So long as the player can find a gpop, I have to have monsters that are prepared to handle players with gpops.

Increasing a potions rarity may mitigate the issue somewhat, but it's definitely too late for rarity to solve it.

 

[zeus9860]

Increasing a potions rarity may mitigate the issue somewhat, but it's definitely too late for rarity to solve it.

No it's not. It would make potions alot more valuable in trades and people wouldn't be using them as often anymore, which means people would either save up, waste them or trade them away. A few patches later this "problem of yours" would be no more, or hardly any problem.

 

[Keldorn]

I'm going to have to go with "No", unless it's a nerf on rarity, barring some sort of extensive rebalance of the entire game, which would add quite a bit of work.

Soloing a midlevel map with potions way over your capability to feasibly get without assistance and characters that have low HP but are so ridiculously specialized in build that they're really overleveled doesn't really prove much, especially when it's in archery and polearms.

Keep in mind here that you guys have not suggested any sort of rebalance to the general game to accompany any potion nerf despite admitting:

...Most monsters, tork elves included, are A) unreasonably hard without potions

If you're really desperate to preserve what you think would be balanced for a future map, maybe you should ask for/make some sort of script that strips potion effects, similar to stripping glow in kfortress.

 

[Red Cell]

Well I'm glad this ragefest stopped and people are actually discussing issues...

*cough cough*

 

[Echo717]

The sampling techniques in this experiment are dubious

The sample size is too small, and the experiment itself could be better constructed.

Get level 30 in lowest hp skills, beat lvl 20-25 map with potions you can't get, complain that potions should be nerfed.

 

[MrJohnson]

Hey pros!

Just a little side view from someone who always pictured himself a nooblord, even if he reached over 700 HP in the meantime.

For me those "higher" maps where always insta facerape for my character. And that is mainly because of experience (not for the character, for the player). I often forgot to reshield me with iceshield. Immunity Potions? What's that? And then I get friggin killed by midlevel npcs. I got stuck with farming orc_for because it was easy doing for me as the monsters adjusted to my level. Then I started getting better, knowing where I had to be careful, how to exploit the elemental weaknesses of my enemies, when to use protection and healing.

Then there came JAN2013 and I was eager to play more. First thing I've seen in the Server-Browser : the_wall 2/8
I thought "Fuck, that is that uber hard map, I think I wont make it" (was like 625 HP back then). But then I just joined the fun.

And then I realized. That 800/900 HP guy who wanted a lighting tork so badly was using pots every run.
So why didn't I? I always horded my gpops and immunity potions and didn't want to use them (yeah that a messy mindset) Suddenly no more insta-death for me because I drank a few. Did it make the_wall for a nooblord like me easymode? Certainly not. But it made the map fun for me, and I could contribute to our teamplay by going into melee, not stand in the rear and spam orionballs and accidentally crash the server with it.

What I wanna say with this little slice of life in MrJohnsons' MS:C world is:
Potions are great to enhance you capabilities, but should not make everything easymode. And even IF it makes the map easymode to some of you because you know more about the game and the mechanics, then just make potions more rare. I would be ok with it, because it adds value to having this additional protection.

For us casual players potions allow us to go on higher maps without beeing raped, we have "crappy" armors and "crappy" weapons, it's not about HP like the OP is measuring map difficulty on HP amount - we still get buttsecks because we either don't live long enough, or don't kill fast enough. You use 31 Polearms and 25 Archery, I think phobia is really easy with those skills and corresponding weaponry anyway, just don't get hit often and you are good to go. When I started going to phobia last patch all I had was every skill on 20-22 except for axes (which is melee and will get you into the enemies and thus, killed) and save to say: no overpowered bows and throwing polearms.

 

[Caluminium]

I have composed a list of IMO fair suggestions:

• Unbankable pots - this makes them more valuable
• Duration for potions - if a potion lasts e.g. 10 minutes, you will have to choose wisely when to use it)
• Make potions rare drops in boss chests - again this makes them more valuable
• Map entity that enables/disables pot effects - this will allow maps to be designed on a consistent level playing field, rather than creating maps based on the fact that everyone will be using potions
• Nerf the NPC's by making them similar to players - e.g. The Torkalath Novice's Crossbow hits 3x times faster than a players' Crossbow

Mana Font should be nerfed though, 10 mana per second is way too much, I would say 2-5 mana per second is more reasonable.

 

[Echo717]

The experiment you're basing these conclusions on is poorly constructed and your data is thus poopy D:

 

[Echo717]

I should be more specific on why this is a bad experiment

-You got level 30 in the lowest hp skills, this doesn't represent the majority of low levels, a jack of all trades of lower levels would be more representative of low levels than level 30 in a single skill
-You got potions that would be extremely difficult to obtain at that hp level, or trade for from other players
-You played on a self adjusting map, the majority of which is mid level anyway
-You never specified what gear or weapons you are using
-your sample size is n =1
-The map you chose has npc allies that could potentially kill the boss for you (unlikely)

edit: Should have also listed your levels

 

[Fegged]

I should be more specific on why this is a bad experiment

-You got level 30 in the lowest hp skills, this doesn't represent the majority of low levels, a jack of all trades of lower levels would be more representative of low levels than level 30 in a single skill
-You got potions that would be extremely difficult to obtain at that hp level, or trade for from other players
-You played on a self adjusting map, the majority of which is mid level anyway
-You never specified what gear or weapons you are using
-your sample size is n =1
-The map you chose has npc allies that could potentially kill the boss for you (unlikely)

edit: Should have also listed your levels

Who said Polearms is the lowest HP skill?
Self-Adjusting who gives a shit? I can show you how to run bloodshrine..
Those pots are just to show that the HP don't really matter
I used Harpoon and Ice Typhoon for them (Ice Typhoon for Bandits,Orcs,Bears,Fire Cobras| Harpoon for Greater Elemental and Boss.. I let the SA dude and Blunt dude die because i just train PA,Arch (Only for mobs i couldnt kill before, as i do can use the Holy Lance now i havent trained it anymore) and SC.. So I only used 2 weapons in a whole map.
The Archer doesnt really hit that often as the boss gets shot back thanks to the harpoon..

Want Cal to make an 10 Part run through Bloodshrine? (w/ help from sorcs)

Cal listed the perfect settings to what should be edited..

And also i showed and screenie of my skills..
because its you i show it again (b4 i grinded SC but still after those runs)

 

[Snow Wolf]

nerds

 

[zeus9860]

nerds

EL OH EL, wise words from good ol' Bananasteak!


Also Rideon, bugger off. Go to school or something, and take caluminium with you. Teach him some manners, like "How to stop being a greedy cunt."

For the last time, i'll only agree with a potion nerf if it's in terms of rarity, making that inventory limit is also stupid, i'll just buy more accounts and make more banks, what's up? :roll:


EDIT: Or actually make a fuck*ng alchemy/potion maker npc ingame in each town, so we can actually farm ingredients and make some potions, that's how the game should have rolled since the age of stone, along with most weapons being rusty powerless artifacts in which required upgrading in order to be used at full potential. But no, we got top-nodge artifacts already in 5* quality, i mean seriously, going to umulak for example and finding the lightning (spoiler) good as new makes nearly no sense at all, given that mummies are rotting to hell, the place should be all dusty, given that place is pretty much ancient.

 

[Keldorn]

Who said Polearms is the lowest HP skill?

Polearms and Archery give the lowest HP returns, even less than Smallarms, though I've always found it weird that hitting something with a dagger gives you better strength training than either.

In exchange, they've always been a bit "better" than the other skills when it comes to range.

Who needs HP when you barely ever get hit?

		case NATURAL_STR:
			return (GetSkillStat(SKILL_SWORDSMANSHIP) * 1.5 +
					GetSkillStat(SKILL_MARTIALARTS) +
				    GetSkillStat(SKILL_AXEHANDLING) * 2.0 +
					GetSkillStat(SKILL_BLUNTARMS) * 1.9 +
					(GetSkillStat(SKILL_POLEARMS) * 0.6f) +
					(GetSkillStat(SKILL_SMALLARMS) * 0.8) +
					(GetSkillStat(SKILL_ARCHERY) * 0.5)) / 4;
		case NATURAL_DEX: //How fast u can move
			return (GetSkillStat(SKILL_SWORDSMANSHIP) * 0.6 +
					GetSkillStat(SKILL_MARTIALARTS) +
				    GetSkillStat(SKILL_AXEHANDLING) * 0.6 +
					GetSkillStat(SKILL_BLUNTARMS) * 0.6 +
					(GetSkillStat(SKILL_SMALLARMS) * 1.5) +
					(GetSkillStat(SKILL_POLEARMS) * 2.0f) +
					(GetSkillStat(SKILL_ARCHERY) * 1.5)) / 6;	
		case NATURAL_CON:
			return (GetSkillStat(SKILL_ARCHERY) * 1.5 +
					/*GetSkillStat(SKILL_PARRY) + */
					(GetSkillStat(SKILL_POLEARMS) * 1.0f) +
					GetSkillStat(SKILL_SPELLCASTING) * 2.0 ) / 2;	
		case NATURAL_AWR:
			//Archery & [strike]parry[/strike] MA count the most for awareness
			return (GetSkillStat(SKILL_SWORDSMANSHIP) * 0.5f +
					(GetSkillStat(SKILL_MARTIALARTS) * 2.0f) +
				    GetSkillStat(SKILL_AXEHANDLING) * 0.5f +
					GetSkillStat(SKILL_BLUNTARMS) * 0.5f +
					(GetSkillStat(SKILL_SMALLARMS) * 1.5f) +
					(GetSkillStat(SKILL_ARCHERY) * 2.0f) +
					(GetSkillStat(SKILL_POLEARMS) * 2.0f)
				    /*(GetSkillStat(SKILL_PARRY) * 2.0f)*/) / 7;
		case NATURAL_FIT:
			//Archery & smallarms barely count for fitness
			return (GetSkillStat(SKILL_SWORDSMANSHIP) +
					GetSkillStat(SKILL_MARTIALARTS) +
				    (GetSkillStat(SKILL_AXEHANDLING) * 1.5) +
					(GetSkillStat(SKILL_BLUNTARMS) * 1.5) +
				    /*GetSkillStat(SKILL_PARRY) + */
					(GetSkillStat(SKILL_SMALLARMS) * 0.7) +
					(GetSkillStat(SKILL_POLEARMS) * 0.7f) +
					(GetSkillStat(SKILL_ARCHERY) * 0.6)) / 5;
		case NATURAL_WIS:
			return (1 + /*GetSkillStat(SKILL_PARRY) /2 +*/
					GetSkillStat(SKILL_SPELLCASTING) *1.75);	 //Thothie - how about SC counts for wisdom more than parry?

Since Fitness and Strength both give the same hp per point now (7), each skill basically gives the following amount of hp per level (though it doesn't truly count until the game rounds you to the next point).

Swords: (7[3/8 + 1/5]) = 4.025
Martial Arts: (7[1/4 + 1/5]) = 3.15
Axehandling: (7[1/2 + 3/10]) = 5.6 (highest!)
Bluntarms: (7[19/40 + 3/10]) = 5.425
Polearms: (7[3/20 + 7/50]) = 2.03
Smallarms: (7[2/10 + 7/50]) = 2.38
Archery: (7[1/8 + 3/25]) = 1.715

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Also Rideon, bugger off. Go to school or something, and take caluminium with you. Teach him some manners, like "How to stop being a greedy ****."

I'm sorry, but the following needs to be said:

Shut the fuck up.

EDIT: Or actually make a *****ng alchemy/potion maker npc ingame in each town, so we can actually farm ingredients and make some potions

This is planned for underkeep.

However... when I told thothie about this, he put up resistance. Why? Because he doesn't want us running around collecting a bunch of ingredients and clogging up our inventory, crashing servers and causing more overflows and item bugs.

I suggested that we allow players to consolidate all of their potions. Say you have 25 gpops, well, why not turn it into 1 gpop with 25 drinks?

But what was thothies response? Not without a nerf was his response.

i mean seriously, going to umulak for example and finding the lightning (spoiler) good as new makes nearly no sense at all, given that mummies are rotting to hell, the place should be all dusty, given that place is pretty much ancient.

It's better not to talk about 'making sense' and Umulak together in the same sentence.

 

[Echo717]

Who said Polearms is the lowest HP skill?
Self-Adjusting who gives a ****? I can show you how to run bloodshrine..
Those pots are just to show that the HP don't really matter
I used Harpoon and Ice Typhoon for them (Ice Typhoon for Bandits,Orcs,Bears,Fire Cobras| Harpoon for Greater Elemental and Boss.. I let the SA dude and Blunt dude die because i just train PA,Arch (Only for mobs i couldnt kill before, as i do can use the Holy Lance now i havent trained it anymore) and SC.. So I only used 2 weapons in a whole map.
The Archer doesnt really hit that often as the boss gets shot back thanks to the harpoon..

self adjusting, means that although your test was to show that hp doesn't matter, your low hp made the enemies easier, I recommend using one of them commands to artificially increase the hp on the server without increasing your own if you try and make this experiment actually mean something

So far all it's saying is that low hp characters with abnormally high levels in the two lowest hp giving skills, with equipment that could be hard for them to get using potions they have a hard time getting can beat a self adjusting map that adjusted to their low level somewhat, while most of the map was mid level.

If I were to construct an experiment I'd do the following
- Test different joat characters in increments of 5 levels, starting at 5 ending at 25
- Test on maps with either a flat difficulty or artificially making the map adjust to a higher tier
- Test with the best gear possible at that level, e.g. were you testing at 20 you'd have access to all lvl 20 weapons
- Test more than once
- Test more than one high level map to show us it's not just a problem with a poorly designed map

I don't think there's anything you could do to adjust for the fact that potions like the ones you used are difficult to obtain at low levels

edit: I'd also time it, saying we beat it with low hp and we beat it with low hp and it took us two hours is a bit different eh?

 

[zeus9860]

I'm sorry, but the following needs to be said:

Shut the **** up.

I got my reasons, just like you have yours, let's keep it that way, shall we?

And i'll keep on telling the samethings over and over again, untill everyone and their f*cking mother sees what kind of people we are dealing with here. They brought this upon themselves, so i don't care. A good reason why JM got banned was because of these 2 morons (Rideon not included, but also a moron from what i see), who are trying to fuck up the game even further now, they should just leave and go play soccer maps in CS:S, that's where they really belong, not here.

And i don't give a flying f*ck if we lost a mapper or a codder or any other sh!t because of what i'm saying, i rather have noone helping the mod than a non-trustworthy greedy faggot who only sees things for his own benefit without having a check on everyone else.

 

[Drathamus]

Where'd the poll go?

I wanted to vote "no" again.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

And i don't give a flying f*ck if we lost a mapper or a codder or any other sh!t because of what i'm saying, i rather have noone helping the mod than a non-trustworthy greedy faggot who only sees things for his own benefit without having a check on everyone else.

And this is why people don't want to work on this mod. Welcome to being part of the problem.

 

[zeus9860]

And i don't give a flying f*ck if we lost a mapper or a codder or any other sh!t because of what i'm saying, i rather have noone helping the mod than a non-trustworthy greedy faggot who only sees things for his own benefit without having a check on everyone else.

And this is why people don't want to work on this mod. Welcome to being part of the problem.

You are also part of the problem for keeping this going. If you are so intelligent as you try to sound like most of the time, you would know by now that the best option for you would be to shut the hell up and drop the subject, instead you keep adding fire to the flames and expect everything to be cool. You are not that much different from me in the end, as you also added to the cause i mentioned in the previous reply.

 

[Thothie]

EDIT: Or actually make a *****ng alchemy/potion maker npc ingame in each town, so we can actually farm ingredients and make some potions

However... when I told thothie about this, he put up resistance. Why? Because he doesn't want us running around collecting a bunch of ingredients and clogging up our inventory, crashing servers and causing more overflows and item bugs.

No, you told me you wanted to have people collect items for making medical supplies to aid injured NPCs on a specific map, and I was all, why not just use map triggers, maybe coupled with scripted counters, and save people the inventory space? (Stuffing their inventory with items they cannot use anywhere else.)

I suggested that we allow players to consolidate all of their potions. Say you have 25 gpops, well, why not turn it into 1 gpop with 25 drinks?

But what was thothies response? Not without a nerf was his response.

That'd be more accurate. The fact that they don't stack is among the things keeping them in line.

Shut the **** up.

Now, now...

Where'd the poll go?

I wanted to vote "no" again.

I think the originator decided to remove the poll when it got to 7/18 against. Or at least, that's what it was when I last saw it, I guess I'll just have to assume it was twice as bad, as I dunno how many more votes were made between then and the removal of the poll.

Nerf the NPC's by making them similar to players

Lulz... No. There's a reason most mobs have ~3-5x the DPS and HP as players in their own tier. Mobs are nothing like players, and given the hp/dmg multipliers you had to use in your own map, just to make it mid level, I think you'd understand this (although I suppose you aren't looking at the base script's stats).

Map entity that enables/disables pot effects - this will allow maps to be designed on a consistent level playing field, rather than creating maps based on the fact that everyone will be using potions

Just make your high end map with high end players, and thus high end equipment, in mind. I suppose some boss-wizard with a debuff spell would make sense, maybe some protective monoliths you have to destroy before magic works right, or maybe if your map involves some really odd altered reality that might fux with magic, but otherwise, just deal with it.

Duration for potions - if a potion lasts e.g. 10 minutes, you will have to choose wisely when to use it)

Already true of a few of em.

Make potions rare drops in boss chests - again this makes them more valuable

...and that's about as far as I'm willing to go, at the moment.

 

[franky200]

Make potions rare drops in boss chests - again this makes them more valuable

...and that's about as far as I'm willing to go, at the moment.

This seems like the best option at this point.