Cutting off the head of the snake...

[jon50559]

Well death penalties (xp loss) also prevent players from hitting the level "limit" so soon. Lately a lot of people have started to get near/over 1,000 HP and like Thothie says over and over the current game doesn't really support people at that extreme high-end tier yet.

Without the death penalty negation though, leveling up can be soooo frustrating (not in a fun or challenging kind of way) So the game elements sort of contradict each other.

 

[zeus9860]

Don't expect people to reach the current cap anytime soon. It's basically insane to do so (if i'm not mistaking lvl 40-45 in a single skill is similiar to getting all skills from 1 to 40... which is already insane). So it's not likely to happen unless very hard maps get adequated xp npcs in order to reach that high, i would dare say that the highest someone can achieve is lvl 42 overall, even though its madness to do that aswell.

And the death penalty thing is just... horrible when you are this high lvl. Loosing 2%/death in a substat out of 3 in a lvl 40 skill is alot. It's like loosing ~20 minutes of your life each death or more...

 

[Lanethan]

I think you did the right thing.

 

[Srgnt Rehab]

This thread was the best movie of all time. The surprise ending where Lanethan commented made my jaw drop as I waited for the sequel to come out. I just got back from a long break... its personal.

I am really torn about this JM thing, on one-hand, he has always been there to help me with my mapping problems (However harsh his comments may be) and I never heard him spread exploit/cheat information. But on the other hand I have no reason to suspect foul play by the devs :|

Honestly I have no idea why JM could have possibly wanted to "cheat" because after a certain point in this game it is all rinse and repeat of the same thing with no rewards *due to the fact that you already have everything*

-on a side note, if this is also a thread for complaining about major issues with the game, my problem has been that the game is really good up to about 500hp, but then everything slows down so much with such few STAT rewards and by the time I got to 800hp (which I was amazed I was patient enough to get to) I was incredibly unmotivated to try to level up stats to gain more HP and the only thing to do was play the same dungeons, sometimes I'd play my internet character just to talk to people like Zeus and *DERP* JOKE - JOKE find out new exploits from JM JOKE - JOKE *DERP* but other than that there wasn't much to do. Just wait for new maps to explore and new items to obtain.

I know it cannot be fixed, but I wish that it were possible to get smaller rewards more often at higher levels to keep things interesting rather than spending a month to level up swords again and hoping it might give me my HP.
(PS, is that really Lanethan?)

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

But on the other hand I have no reason to suspect foul play by the devs

You might consider combing the forums for ancient conversations between JM and MiB. It's no secret that the official dev leader has despised JM from day one and wanted him gone long ago.

Also, let's not forget that J.M. denies these allegations completely. If it could really be proven that he cheated denying the allegations would make him look like an idiot. Why would he do that?

And then, of course, you consider the "accidental" nerfing of the BoU crest and the position that the dev team is taking on this issue looks even less credible. I welcome any proof the devs have to offer but given the history of animosity between J.M. and many on the dev team certainly leaves room for suspicion.

(PS, is that really Lanethan?)

That is really Lanethan!

 

[Red Cell]

It's no secret that the official dev leader has despised JM from day one and wanted him gone long ago.

But why did he despise him and want him gone?

 

[zeus9860]

But why did he despise him and want him gone?

My guess would be someone who goes by the name Shuriken getting banned and vanishing. Yes, i do believe that's the main reason why MiB hates JM. Because he was part of the forums drama in 2008 that turned things upside down for a long while. Other than this, i dont see much of a big deal between them both.

Now about the fake accusation (no proof that it is true) that JM cheated, it's all up to the people to either pick on what they believe, i'm still guessing this is a dirty trick they came up with for some "payback" time to what happened back in 2008 and perhaps something else that they have in mind...

This is what i always thought, i won't change my mind about anything related to this unless someone shows me accurate proof that justifies anything for the statement above. Untill that time comes, i'll be waiting.

 

[Mikkel]

FROM THE TOP:

In light of recent events, and the years of the same leading up to it, we've come to a consensus that J-M must be banned from these forums and from the game itself. The constant working against the developers and finding every possible way to cheat the game came to a head when he went past mere exploits and started cheating. We won't go into exactly how he cheated until the security hole has been sealed.

This has been a long time coming, as he has consistently gotten away with all manner of exploits and rallying his guild and other members of the community against the people who give their free time for this game. Any other person who did even a fraction of what he's done would have been punished long ago.

We will not tolerate this sort of behavior. If anyone is caught cheating, exploiting or generally using all their energy to work against the betterment of this game, they will be punished as well. This will not stand anymore.

Tell me you do understand why no "accurate" proof has been released yet.

 

[zeus9860]

If the devs found out he cheated, why wouldnt they find out about the next ones that would attempt doing the samething after reading the accurate proof, hmm?

And what makes you think this isn't all an attempt to get time in order to justify what they have done to him with no proof at all?

And better yet, how can you accuse someone who knows the difference between non FN and FN, that has been around for a very long time, and all of a sudden was "caught" cheating on FN with no proof from the devs and then this happens? (yes, people are pro cheaters outside of FN, BIG DEAL LOL).

 

[Mikkel]

You make it sound like it's easy skimming through to see who is hacking on FN.
I know for a fact it's not, it's not like the FuzNet console says

"Received request from user STEAM_X:X:XXXX"
"User above just cheated LOL"
You actually have to look into things, which takes a lot of time.

Therefore releasing critical holes in the game isn't smart, I bet even you can see that.


Too me this ban is justified even without the proof of him cheating, if it were to me he would've been banned way earlier.

 

[Thothie]

Well, if it makes you feel any better, this action wasn't about him cheating.

I'm sure if we had this same vote, say a year ago, the results would have been the same. None of the people pushing for the ban seemed concerned with his most recent actions, only his past actions, and the fact that he shows no signs of abandoning his long traveled path of destruction. All this latest boondoggle did was cause MiB to demand the vote.

(Not that you don't have to be stretching quite a bit indeed, to assume he's painfully researching and spreading all these cheats and exploits out of the kindness of his heart, while not using any of them himself.)

At the rate we've been going, however, I don't think we're going to be able to patch most of these cheats up - there's at least two I know we're not going to be able to do anything about, short of writing the game up from scratch.

 

[Jelly]

:roll:

 

[zeus9860]

@Jelly

(yes, people are pro cheaters outside of FN, BIG DEAL LOL).

Hope this helps clarify your previous post

Well, if it makes you feel any better, this action wasn't about him cheating.

It would make me even better if this thread was locked tbh, as it would help out people like me who read certain replies here that are insulting in someway, which i dont like and wont take it kindly after many attempts.

 

[Thothie]

Meh, gotta set aside some place for folks to rage, or all this hatred will spill into the other forums, plus the game itself, and muck up everything. Better to have a WC than to have people taking stinky dumps all over the place.

You might consider combing the forums for ancient conversations between JM and MiB. It's no secret that the official dev leader has despised JM from day one and wanted him gone long ago.

But, you see, there's a reason for that (also that started well before Shuri). They don't know one another in RL, so it's not as if one of them did something to the other, personally, it's what J-M has done to the game and the developers over the years. Hence, the long standing animosity between J-M and nearly all of the developers, as well as a good portion of the MSC loving community at large.

Also, let's not forget that J.M. denies these allegations completely.

J-M denies everything he does completely, usually coupled with endless walls of text. He's thoroughly proven he's completely incapable of taking responsibility for his own actions, much less of controlling himself, or we wouldn't be where we are now.

And then, of course, you consider the "accidental" nerfing of the BoU crest and the position that the dev team is taking on this issue looks even less credible.

It wasn't "accidental" in that sense, it took six lines of code in two separate scripts. I just didn't think it was actually working, as it didn't work in tests, and had opted to settle for the description change instead. It was only accidental in the sense that it mysteriously wound up working in the patch. (Suspect flaw in rat-based testing method.) It was in response to J-M's new anti-developer "don't talk to those guys" guild policy, to be maintained until he rescinded it. Suffice to say, I hadn't counted on him getting himself banned.

 

[The Man In Black]

All I have to say is, this:

Also, let's not forget that J.M. denies these allegations completely. If it could really be proven that he cheated denying the allegations would make him look like an idiot. Why would he do that?

is by far the best argument of all time. Because, clearly J-M lying about not cheating would make him an idiot, thus there's no way he could do it. However, the devs are lying, though it makes them idiots.

Also, the only reason Shuri entered into the debate between the devs was because J-M got him run out with no substantial proof. It wasn't that he ran him out, it was an example of how he should be held by his own standards. I disliked J-M FAR before that incident, which is why I said it should be put to a vote. If I were completely biased, I would have told Thothie to get rid of him immediately, however I let the other devs have as much input as I did. Mine was but one vote.

 

[Tentadrilus]

I wouldn't mind seeing a Crest of Badassery with the 300% incoming damage on it. Would certainly spruce some maps up here and there.

While I agree that this thread is an adequate place to vent one's spleen regarding recent events, a few people are more concerned with questioning the legitimacy behind the decision, which is far more than merely providing an opinion. I'm not saying anything either way, except that you might want to keep one finger hovering over the lock button before it escalates...

I understand people's frustration, but some things aren't worth debating. It's a shame it came to this, but at the end of the day, things change. We should too, lest we be run over and left behind.

 

[Truewarrior]

Using the past as an excuse is for pussies. /vent

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

But why did he despise him and want him gone?

It is true that J.M. has done things in the past that damaged the development of this mod. I understand completely where the animosity originates which is why dishonesty in this situation wouldn't surprise me very much. It doesn't help that this whole thing began with "accidentally" nerfing the entirety of BoU immediately after a scandal involving that guilds unofficial policies towards exploiting. These two events of course, had nothing to do with each other and were complete coincidences. It was also a complete coincidence that the BoU crest was chosen for this 'experiment' instead of one of the many crests that are not in use by any active guild. Shortly afterwards, and also a coincidence, JM is banned entirely from FN and the forums for cheating (proof pending) even though according to this thread the punishment for cheating (at least the first time) is

1st strike - 2 month roll back on your character(s)

.

No matter how you spin it, this at least looks bad.

It was in response to J-M's new anti-developer "don't talk to those guys" guild policy, to be maintained until he rescinded it. Suffice to say, I hadn't counted on him getting himself banned.

It is also hard to side with you guys on this, even if I agree in principle, after things like Umulak were allowed to transpire and after Thothie has admitted that he believes that the spiders in orcfor are "hard to get to" (It is possible to kill the boss in orc_for in less than two minutes and then you have access to enemies which give huge experience and are not challenging at all. And doing this isn't exploiting unless using a bludgeon hammer is considered exploiting).
There is a massive disconnect between the way maps are intended to play out and how they work in reality. Take the escort mission at the_wall for example. I have always wondered if anyone actually play tested this map legitimately. I have not played since the update so my information may be outdated, but do the devs actually know how impossible it is to actually escort forsuth up the stairs? Not only because of how overpowered the monsters are, and not only because he has suicidal AI, but also because the stairs are too complex for him to navigate? Do you guys realize that the hardest part of the map is getting him up the staircase after you have killed all of the monsters in his way? He literally just runs back down. It takes longer to get him up the stairs than it does to kill everything on the stairs and everything that comes after.

With that in mind, why should anyone report exploits like the ones used to fight the frost hammers? Everything about that escort mission is unworkable and terrible, not to mention cheesy in a bad way, but nobody can count on that being removed. Why should anyone care about exploits like that when you guys don't even seem to know how the mission functions in the first place? Why should we care about how the map is 'supposed to' play out when you leave us with an NPC who runs all the way to the bottom of the stairs after you have spent 15 minutes painstakingly dragging him to the top?

I agree with you guys when it comes to exploits but only in principle. In reality I find myself with little motivation to report exploits nowadays given the lack of quality control we have seen over the past year or two. I really would like MSC to be a game that was free of cheap tactics and exploits, but I also wish it were a game free of ugly, piece of shit maps with bad gameplay and even worse ideas.

I am just going to kill this wall of text now and post more if I think of something to say later.

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Sorry for the double post but these two statements should be made to stand out, I think.

Well, if it makes you feel any better, this action wasn't about him cheating.

I think there is some confusion as to just as what he was banned for. We've already banned several people for the things he was caught doing, so there is no precedent being set here. It wasn't any simple exploit, he was editing game files and outright cheating.

With language being used like this, does it come as a surprise to you that people have suspicions?

 

[Thothie]

Using the past as an excuse is for pussies. /vent

Some of us got sick of repeating history and decided to learn from it.

[The_wall Forsuth Blah blah blah...]

Yes, it's a pain. Best we could do. Have him follow you up the inside of the stairs. It's not impossible, people have done it, literally, hundreds of times now. If you really have to, it's possible to get one player to hold him in check while you clear out the beasties, and I've seen that done dozens of times, first hand. Yes, it's neigh impossible to do on your own - but that's kind of the point.

It was also a complete coincidence that the BoU crest was chosen for this 'experiment' instead of one of the many crests that are not in use by any active guild.

Where did I say anything of the sort... Why would I even do that to a guild that doesn't exist? Go back and read why I did it... There was nothing accidental about it happening to BoU's crest, only that it worked.

1st strike - 2 month roll back on your character(s)

If you advertise/help other to cheat, you too will be banned.

Players who have servers on the FN network are held to a higher standard. If you are found to be exploiting or twinking in any way, on your own server or elsewhere, not only will you lose your FN access, but your character(s) will be wiped.

Not that any of that BS matters...

The core reason behind the ban, however, has little to do with him cheating. That'd only affect his character, and we'd only roll him back for that. What he has been doing, on the other hand, has affected everyone and threatens the progress of the game as a whole, and that's much less forgivable, even if I wish we had some alternative course of action.

Your out-of-context quote was only to clarify what sort of cheat he was accused of that broke the long dead camel's back (you know, that thing that folks are angry we haven't been more specific about.)

What's "suspicious"? We got sick of it, we voted to ban him, he got banned. Exactly what are we being accused of here?

 

[Truewarrior]

Actually, I was experimenting with it, but I thought it wasn't working... I forgot to remove the expar from the script, and it apparently, started working. :\ (Post about it is still there btw.)

Where did I say anything of the sort... Why would I even do that to a guild that doesn't exist? Go back and read why I did it... There was nothing accidental about it happening to BoU's crest.

So... last week you said it was an accident while you were testing, now you tell us you never said it was and to go back and check.. A simple comment like that makes you look like an hypocrit, beside, everytime i was visiting the forum in the past years, in every god damn thread, you were there making sure every arguments went down, alot of them being valid ones, from new players to experienced one, J-M would drop in at that moment, and you simply replied to all these good player, hoping that there point of view would be heard, 'there goes team whine again'. What the fuck if your problem? What the hell are you thinking acting like you are the only one playing this game all this time, yet you were around for half the time than most of this community?

Nothing done can threaten the game like you say, the only thing right now, like everyone in this community is saying, is the game being made impossible to play and enjoy anymore without spending a rediculous amount of time grinding shit maps, to realise that you get three shot in ''high'' level maps while trying to help your group after all this work.

Now, keep making some excuse to cover your personal reasons and your past grudges and please keep quoting everyone to reply non-sense to try to make you feel better. It's too late to get you out of your little world where you actually do believe that someone agrees with you. (Oh yeah, thanks for the time spent on the game, I am really glad that so many players left and that none of the new ones want to stay!)

 

[Thothie]

So... last week you said it was an accident while you were testing

Go back and read, *this very page*, that's what happened. It was an experiment I ran on the BoU crest (one of many I was mulling over), with the intention of holding said crest hostage until J-M changed his new anti-dev policy. It didn't look like it worked, so I gave up on the idea, and just changed the description tag on the crest instead - but I forgot to remove the experiment's lines, which, apparently, were working better than I thought.

Aside from the grinding complaints that were going on as far back as pre-Steam Mastersword (back when level 20 took more than a full year to reach - and J-M's solution to that was to make a character with straight 255's - and wouldn't use the same editor to make a "reasonable" character - even when I showed him how), I can't quite make sense of most of the rest of that, so I'll leave it to someone else...

 

[TheOysterHippopotami]

Yes, it's a pain. Best we could do. Have him follow you up the inside of the stairs. It's not impossible, people have done it, literally, hundreds of times now. If you really have to, it's possible to get one player to hold him in check while you clear out the beasties, and I've seen that done dozens of times, first hand.

Hell, I've probably done it hundreds of times myself. I know it's not impossible. It's just bad game play design. When the best you can do is a Kamikaze dwarf that can't accurately navigate to his intended goal, that says something. Mainly, it says 'an escort mission in this map is a terrible idea'.
Moreover, if all you have to do is call a friend to sit with Frosty then what is the difference between doing that and exploiting him so that he can't follow you? The game play winds up being the exact same no matter what. The only difference is some poor sap doesn't have to take time out of whatever he is doing to AFK for you.

I just want to make it clear that I am not against maps that are impossible to solo. I am not against super rare items or areas that require teamwork to have access to. I am, however, opposed to Forsuth the Frosty running as fast as his stubby dwarven legs can carry him all the way from his house on a peak in bloodrose valley (which is certainly south of Eswen Sylen) to the wall (which borders the bleak, making it indisputably north of Eswen Sylen). I know I may be the only one who gives a shit about the quality of this games story and world map, but I'm certainly not the only one who is frustrated by poor game play decisions.

Yes, it's neigh impossible to do on your own - but that's kind of the point.

Not true. (unless, of course, something has changed since I last played)

What's "suspicious"? We got sick of it, we voted to ban him, he got banned. Exactly what are we being accused of here?

Pretty much that. You were sick of him, so you banned him. Up until now your posts have been worded in a very propaganda-like manner.

 

[Thothie]

I am, however, opposed to Forsuth the Frosty running as fast as his stubby dwarven legs can carry him all the way from his house on a peak in bloodrose valley (which is certainly south of Eswen Sylen) to the wall (which borders the bleak, making it indisputably north of Eswen Sylen)

The Frozen Summit is north of The Wall, which stops at the mountain it's on top of, and is at about the same latitude as Eswen Sylen, being just slightly north of it as well, but is on the other side of the valley, and thus at a higher elevation. There are tunnels connecting the Frozen Summit, the Caverns of Frost, and the Bleak, which both connect to The Wall. It's a long run for those stubby dwarven legs, to be sure, but it's a viable excuse at least (never mind how he found out). Better to give you an escort mission with someone you're familiar with than to toss in a random NPC at this point though.

But part of the hope was to knock a player out of the fight by forcing him to keep Forsuth occupied in conversation until it was over - and that's how it usually works, though people have found various exploits around that. Tempted to make him do the teleporting pet thing, which would solve the staircase, and remove several of the sploits.

Still trying to think of a way to deal with that damn spiral staircase without going that far though (nothing is going to like that thing under this engine). I'm thinking it might help to toss in a switch to make him follower closer - as I notice the hostile monsters have a somewhat easier time with it than he does - as they're trying to run up and hug you, while Forsuth is trying to stay at a respectful distance. Other possibility is some sort of hacky node navigation.

Granted, now that the wall is cut in two, I could just raise all those basement floors in some physics defying way, that would probably go unnoticed by most, and thus remove the need for the endless spiral staircase entirely - but the thing's so darn purty.

What's "suspicious"? We got sick of it, we voted to ban him, he got banned. Exactly what are we being accused of here?

Pretty much that. You were sick of him, so you banned him. Up until now your posts have been worded in a very propaganda-like manner.

>_> So, basically, I'm being too soft about it? Man "F*ck the Community" in Black too? I should add the usual qualifiers that it's a regrettable necessity that I stupidly fought against, and we've done pretty much everything else we could think of to him already, but I suppose that'd be "suspicious"? >_>

 

[Red Cell]

I really would like MSC to be a game that was free

I'm misquoting on purpose. But this level of self entitlement toward this FREE game is perplexing, no one is requiring that you play this game that cost you nothing. Could someone please explain to me how this mentality works?