[REL]Unrest
- Thread starter Jester
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #27
Jester
New Adventurer
Hehe, thanks again Kuroneko, you are too kind.
yay for kuroneko
- Thread starter
- #29
Jester
New Adventurer
Warning: Post-whore somewhere in this thread. Be very careful or he might reply completely off-topic.
- Thread starter
- #31
Jester
New Adventurer
Update: Added some lights 
. Much needed too hehe.
This will pretty much be the final update for this map while I work on the second part. Please still post here about things you think need changed.
http://rapidshare.de/files/12358285/unrest.zip.html
Kuroneko: Please update your download, and don't worry this will probably be the final time
, thanks.
. Much needed too hehe.This will pretty much be the final update for this map while I work on the second part. Please still post here about things you think need changed.
http://rapidshare.de/files/12358285/unrest.zip.html
Kuroneko: Please update your download, and don't worry this will probably be the final time
, thanks.
Jester said:Update: Added some lights
This will pretty much be the final update for this map while I work on the second part. Please still post here about things you think need changed.
http://rapidshare.de/files/12358285/unrest.zip.html
Kuroneko: Please update your download, and don't worry this will probably be the final time
*grumbles*
http://kuroneko.gotdns.com:27018/temp/unrest.zip
- Admin
- #33
I got a look at it and that's.... not a bad map, 'specially for first time.
I'd have to see the source to see what is causing the god-awful r_speeds - but it may just been the huge areas, and the castle with no gaps / portcullis. There is at least one sliver of a wall you don't have sealed on the front end, right side, facing the castle. There are likely more. I'd tell you to re-think the layout in terms of the HL engine's capabilities - but I guess you're duplicating an old Evercrack map, so much like me with my co_totoro map, ye are likely SOL.
Foglund sets up shop in the crappiest locales.
For multi-player, you need to add more spawn/begins and, since you have a low ceiling where you spawn, you're going to have to add a weak push brush there. (I added a weak point entity one to the Unrest map on my server, that will hopefully stop the mass-player merge issue we had the first time I tried it out).
Seriously need a /stuck for MSC.
My main critisism is that ya got nothing but wandering skelletons in there and no apparent goal... I suppose that would be typical of everything that is wrong with an Evercrack map though. Try to make a gauntlet and goal at least - something to make it more than a chat room with monsters. Also would be good not to have all the skeletons spawn at once - add some spawnstart 1's and triggers to the map, and some func_monsterclips to stop the skeletons from blocking doors and such.
I realize the bush maze is probably too narrow to fit anything inside of, but you can put triggers in there, and spawn, say, bats, above the maze when the player's reach dead ends, for instance. You could also likely spawn small single items (say potions) via msitem_spawn.
I'd have to see the source to see what is causing the god-awful r_speeds - but it may just been the huge areas, and the castle with no gaps / portcullis. There is at least one sliver of a wall you don't have sealed on the front end, right side, facing the castle. There are likely more. I'd tell you to re-think the layout in terms of the HL engine's capabilities - but I guess you're duplicating an old Evercrack map, so much like me with my co_totoro map, ye are likely SOL.
Foglund sets up shop in the crappiest locales.
For multi-player, you need to add more spawn/begins and, since you have a low ceiling where you spawn, you're going to have to add a weak push brush there. (I added a weak point entity one to the Unrest map on my server, that will hopefully stop the mass-player merge issue we had the first time I tried it out).
Seriously need a /stuck for MSC.
My main critisism is that ya got nothing but wandering skelletons in there and no apparent goal... I suppose that would be typical of everything that is wrong with an Evercrack map though.
Try to make a gauntlet and goal at least - something to make it more than a chat room with monsters. Also would be good not to have all the skeletons spawn at once - add some spawnstart 1's and triggers to the map, and some func_monsterclips to stop the skeletons from blocking doors and such.I realize the bush maze is probably too narrow to fit anything inside of, but you can put triggers in there, and spawn, say, bats, above the maze when the player's reach dead ends, for instance. You could also likely spawn small single items (say potions) via msitem_spawn.
- Admin
- #34
I took a gander at your source, as you requested, and ummm... Yeah. You maybe right about starting over being an easier solution.
I should have guessed this... But it seems the vast majority of your massive FPS lag is caused by the fact that you have committed the greatest known HL1 mapping sin: You have boxed your map. Your entire map is suspended in the middle of a thin skybox - this is very, very bad.
Crow had this in his signature for almost a year, it became a montra for him: Thou Shall Not Box Thine Maps - having learned the hard way. Drawing a huge box around your map lags everything, straight to hell. So, my advice for your future mapping projects:
1) Don't box your map.
Nuff said.
2) Do not use 1 unit wide walls.
1 unit wide walls are for testing purposes, they cause many more problems then they solve. If you want to be absolutely sure no unnecessary faces are rendered, use NULL textures instead of thin walls.
3) Conform to a large grid.
You told me you were conforming to the grid... I've no clue where - but my best guess is you are conforming to 1x1 or some similar such - don't do that. You should be 16x16 or larger, except for when doing very fine detail. Everything gets split at every 64th unit, regardless, so conforming to a hex friendly grid prevents massive unnecessary splitting.
4) Don't overalap brushes.
This causes all sorts of rendering and FPS issues - and causes some graphics cards to crash, if two textures overlap on the same plane. The floor of your castle, penetrating the walls on the outside, for instance, is causing everything attached to said floor to render (basically the entire castle is rendering, regardless of the walls blocking your view).
Should also learn that clip texture brushes are better than invisible func_walls.
You have many, many invalid shapes, these cause all sorts of splitting and FPS issues - and I'm surprised the map compiled this way. Use ALT+P in Hammer - and go through the errors you have. :|
Still, I must say - I could fix this and send you the optimized version as a tutorial or something, should I get the time to do so - that's kind of how Crow learned from his mistakes, I guess. He's actually made some maps that were so effed up, in the past, that I just plain couldn't fix (such as LostCastle). TBH what you've done here is very similar to what Crow did way back then and I don't think that was quite his first map, so maybe you're one up on him there. Suffice to say, he doesn't do any of those things anymore, and in all likelihood, his work now is so far beyond mine that I can hardly critique it now.
So if you can learn from his past mistakes, quickly, you may find yourself on par with him in no time.
Although, one last thing I should say - even in Crow's oldest, crappiest work, one thing shines through: he has always had very good game ideas. His maps had goals, puzzles, some combination there of, in addition to some stunning visual effects (even the ones that lagged you to death). This 'Unrest' map doesn't bode well in that department, however, neither do most of the current official MSC maps, so it may just be the concept that a map can be a quest, in and of itself, is foreign to the new MSC player.
I may translate Crow's old Curse of the Bear Gods series to MSC, even though it would kind of be an insult to his current work, and it would take some time for me to do so. But I think it would be worth while just to show that MSC maps can, and should, be more than just a field or maze of wandering monsters.
I should have guessed this... But it seems the vast majority of your massive FPS lag is caused by the fact that you have committed the greatest known HL1 mapping sin: You have boxed your map. Your entire map is suspended in the middle of a thin skybox - this is very, very bad.
Crow had this in his signature for almost a year, it became a montra for him: Thou Shall Not Box Thine Maps - having learned the hard way. Drawing a huge box around your map lags everything, straight to hell. So, my advice for your future mapping projects:
1) Don't box your map.
Nuff said.
2) Do not use 1 unit wide walls.
1 unit wide walls are for testing purposes, they cause many more problems then they solve. If you want to be absolutely sure no unnecessary faces are rendered, use NULL textures instead of thin walls.
3) Conform to a large grid.
You told me you were conforming to the grid... I've no clue where - but my best guess is you are conforming to 1x1 or some similar such - don't do that. You should be 16x16 or larger, except for when doing very fine detail. Everything gets split at every 64th unit, regardless, so conforming to a hex friendly grid prevents massive unnecessary splitting.
4) Don't overalap brushes.
This causes all sorts of rendering and FPS issues - and causes some graphics cards to crash, if two textures overlap on the same plane. The floor of your castle, penetrating the walls on the outside, for instance, is causing everything attached to said floor to render (basically the entire castle is rendering, regardless of the walls blocking your view).
Should also learn that clip texture brushes are better than invisible func_walls.
You have many, many invalid shapes, these cause all sorts of splitting and FPS issues - and I'm surprised the map compiled this way. Use ALT+P in Hammer - and go through the errors you have. :|
Still, I must say - I could fix this and send you the optimized version as a tutorial or something, should I get the time to do so - that's kind of how Crow learned from his mistakes, I guess. He's actually made some maps that were so effed up, in the past, that I just plain couldn't fix (such as LostCastle). TBH what you've done here is very similar to what Crow did way back then and I don't think that was quite his first map, so maybe you're one up on him there. Suffice to say, he doesn't do any of those things anymore, and in all likelihood, his work now is so far beyond mine that I can hardly critique it now.
So if you can learn from his past mistakes, quickly, you may find yourself on par with him in no time.
Although, one last thing I should say - even in Crow's oldest, crappiest work, one thing shines through: he has always had very good game ideas. His maps had goals, puzzles, some combination there of, in addition to some stunning visual effects (even the ones that lagged you to death). This 'Unrest' map doesn't bode well in that department, however, neither do most of the current official MSC maps, so it may just be the concept that a map can be a quest, in and of itself, is foreign to the new MSC player.
I may translate Crow's old Curse of the Bear Gods series to MSC, even though it would kind of be an insult to his current work, and it would take some time for me to do so. But I think it would be worth while just to show that MSC maps can, and should, be more than just a field or maze of wandering monsters.
- Thread starter
- #35
Jester
New Adventurer
Thanks for all the tips, I might get around to fixing it when I have time.
As for the game ideas(goals/puzzles), the only reason I don't have any is because it is supposed to be a remake of an old EQ zone, where there were no goals or puzzles, just killing. This map was just for fun and practice. When I actually start on a map or series for adventure purpose it will be much better as far as fps and gameplay.
As for the game ideas(goals/puzzles), the only reason I don't have any is because it is supposed to be a remake of an old EQ zone, where there were no goals or puzzles, just killing. This map was just for fun and practice. When I actually start on a map or series for adventure purpose it will be much better as far as fps and gameplay
.- Thread starter
- #36
Jester
New Adventurer
Working link in first post.
http://www.thothie.com/public/Jester/unrest.zip
http://www.thothie.com/public/Jester/unrest.zip
